A guy at work had his Jeep Cherokee tires filled up with nitrogen for $10 and he claims to have picked up 1-2 mpg. Anyone had their Ram tires filled with nitrogen?
A05GSHO
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Nitrogen in Tires
He most likely got his MPG inprovement from having underinflated tires in the first place. Nitrogens density does not change as much with tempature so the PSI in your tires stays around the same. He was prob about 5lbs or more below what the recommended psi was.
Dont get me wrong though......most tire places now use nitrogen like Costco, Goodyear, etc.
Dont get me wrong though......most tire places now use nitrogen like Costco, Goodyear, etc.
I ran Nitrogen in my tires on my S-10, I don't know about immediate gains but I can tell you they definitely don't change in PSI with the ambient air! It's kind of nice, you only need to check if you think you have a leak. Eventually I'll have my Ram done the same way.
N20 is the way to go If i can find a place here in KC to do it I would
unlike air the n20 molecule is larger than the space between the molecule of the rubber in the tires so it doesnt seep out of the tire over time like air does.
Second, like the guys have said it doesnt change anywhere near the amount that air does due to the changes in temp
Thirdly if you were ti have a blowout it doesnt react as violently as air so it is a little safer at speeds
you can gain a little mileage by using N20 (please dont ask me to explane the chemical and physics ) it has to do with the densitis of the volume of N20 and the mass of the tire working togather it is easier to get it to start rolling
unlike air the n20 molecule is larger than the space between the molecule of the rubber in the tires so it doesnt seep out of the tire over time like air does.
Second, like the guys have said it doesnt change anywhere near the amount that air does due to the changes in temp
Thirdly if you were ti have a blowout it doesnt react as violently as air so it is a little safer at speeds
you can gain a little mileage by using N20 (please dont ask me to explane the chemical and physics ) it has to do with the densitis of the volume of N20 and the mass of the tire working togather it is easier to get it to start rolling
I have a 7,000 gallon Liq. Nitrogen Dewar out front of my shop sitting at 200psi. I run all my air tools off the sucker and can tell you this: there's a reason they call it dry nitrogen. No moisture in it so its imperitive tool oil is used consistently. One darn good reason right there why I use it in my tires: won't rot the rubber.
I have heard this is pretty much a myth. Air is 78% nitrogen anyway, and even if it did oxidize the inside of your tires a bit more, what about the outside of your tires? I would think that normal tread wear against the - road - would be the biggest source of tire wear.
I use Hydrogen, now my truck just floats over those bumps, and it's 0.0000001% lighter.:flippy:
Damn, I did a search and couldnt find anything about this topic...
But anyway, I read the same things as you guys did. And with me upgrading to larger/heavier wheels this week, i think im going to give it a shot. First I gotta call around and make sure the local shops do it, and that it doesnt cost an arm and a leg...
But anyway, I read the same things as you guys did. And with me upgrading to larger/heavier wheels this week, i think im going to give it a shot. First I gotta call around and make sure the local shops do it, and that it doesnt cost an arm and a leg...
Most will do it for a few bucks. I think when my father did his silverado it was like 5.75 or something.
Myth or not, I'm just telling you that it doesn't fluctuate in psi as much as straight air does with the ambient temp...which means your tires stay at a constant pressure. If you set it correctly, then you shouldn't have to worry about tires that are too low, thus offering lower gas mileage.
What happened to the old days when people checked their tire pressure and oil whenever they got gas. I always remember my dad and grandfather doing that when I was growing up. I picked up the habit from them, but now people give you weird looks when you check over your vehicle at a gas station.
I bet 1 in 200 check there oil at gas stations. Maybe less than that. I have always checked oil if not every fill up at at least every other fill up. I know this because I keep all my gas reciepts in my truck. That way I have something to cry over. I have to admit....I check my tire pressure about once every month or so.
Oil: every other fill up or so...
Tire pressure: eh....when they look low? I know I should do it more often...
Tire pressure: eh....when they look low? I know I should do it more often...
Good lord this nitrogen in the tires myth never goes away! We had a loooong discussion about this over a year ago here. Should still be able to find it in the search function. Here's the deal:
1. Molecule size - Really? Any differences in molecule size are going to be relatively insignificant in comparison to valve leakage and bead leakage. I'm not saying it makes no difference, but this is a not laboratory and the sealing systems in the tires of passenger vehicles are probably not good enough to make any real difference measurable between air and N2.
2. N2 doesn't expand/contract with temperature - BS. Period. In the application we are talking about (~30 psi and temps of ~20 degF to ~200 degF), both Air and N2 are ideal gasses. They are both bound by identical laws of physics.
3. Better mileage - Absolutely no way. The only way your mileage would increase is if you reduced the friction of your tires on the road, or reduced the weight of the vehicle. Nitrogen does niether of these things.
4. Nitrogen has no moisture - Generally this is true. But you can get air that is dry also, just not from the standard compressor at the gas station. In cold conditions, moist air in the tires can cause condensation inside the tire. Small water droplets that evaporate almost immediately upon starting the vehicle rolling. Why would you care?
Someone will chime in and say "But airplanes use Nitrogen in their tires!" Airplanes use N2 for two reasons, one MAJOR and one side-benefit:
1. MAJOR REASON: Air has oxygen and Nitrogen does not. This is a safety benefit - if an airplane experiences extreme brake energies either due to overspeed landing, overweight landing, or short field landing the wheel assembly heats up to extreme temperatures. Eliminating Oxygen from the tires reduces the possibility of fire by removing the oxidizer.
2. SIDE-BENEFIT: Moisture content. If oxidizer was not a concern, then airplanes could just use DRY air which would be cheaper. But nitrogen having an extremely low moisture content is a benefit for an airplane because at altitude (~20,000 feet +), the air temperatures are EXTREMELY cold, like 60 or 70 below zero. At these temperatures, freezing of the moisture in the tires could present a problem. This is because in an airplane application - the tires go from their coldest temp to their maximum performance and temp in an instant (touchdown). An unbalanced wheel that has ice in it has no chance to warm up and could cause a problem on landing and rollout.
All that said - I would say unless you live in Northern Canada, Alaska or some other EXTREME cold environment, there is absolutely NO BENEFIT to paying $10 a fill up to put nitrogen in your tires. And even in those cold climates - its just a nice-to-have.
1. Molecule size - Really? Any differences in molecule size are going to be relatively insignificant in comparison to valve leakage and bead leakage. I'm not saying it makes no difference, but this is a not laboratory and the sealing systems in the tires of passenger vehicles are probably not good enough to make any real difference measurable between air and N2.
2. N2 doesn't expand/contract with temperature - BS. Period. In the application we are talking about (~30 psi and temps of ~20 degF to ~200 degF), both Air and N2 are ideal gasses. They are both bound by identical laws of physics.
3. Better mileage - Absolutely no way. The only way your mileage would increase is if you reduced the friction of your tires on the road, or reduced the weight of the vehicle. Nitrogen does niether of these things.
4. Nitrogen has no moisture - Generally this is true. But you can get air that is dry also, just not from the standard compressor at the gas station. In cold conditions, moist air in the tires can cause condensation inside the tire. Small water droplets that evaporate almost immediately upon starting the vehicle rolling. Why would you care?
Someone will chime in and say "But airplanes use Nitrogen in their tires!" Airplanes use N2 for two reasons, one MAJOR and one side-benefit:
1. MAJOR REASON: Air has oxygen and Nitrogen does not. This is a safety benefit - if an airplane experiences extreme brake energies either due to overspeed landing, overweight landing, or short field landing the wheel assembly heats up to extreme temperatures. Eliminating Oxygen from the tires reduces the possibility of fire by removing the oxidizer.
2. SIDE-BENEFIT: Moisture content. If oxidizer was not a concern, then airplanes could just use DRY air which would be cheaper. But nitrogen having an extremely low moisture content is a benefit for an airplane because at altitude (~20,000 feet +), the air temperatures are EXTREMELY cold, like 60 or 70 below zero. At these temperatures, freezing of the moisture in the tires could present a problem. This is because in an airplane application - the tires go from their coldest temp to their maximum performance and temp in an instant (touchdown). An unbalanced wheel that has ice in it has no chance to warm up and could cause a problem on landing and rollout.
All that said - I would say unless you live in Northern Canada, Alaska or some other EXTREME cold environment, there is absolutely NO BENEFIT to paying $10 a fill up to put nitrogen in your tires. And even in those cold climates - its just a nice-to-have.
See, I tried to tell them Hydrogen, got to go with the weight reduction, yeah that's the ticket, float like a butterfly sting like a Super Bee, you guys never listen.
"Disclaimer" ( For those of us that are humor challenged, yes, this is a joke. )
"Disclaimer" ( For those of us that are humor challenged, yes, this is a joke. )
Ok so I know what i said before but here is information i have now discovered
(Im a Material engineer) Im a geek for this stuff!!! LOL
Oh, there are plenty of benefits: (1) Cool fluorescent green valve stem caps (assuming your nitrogen vendor has any marketing savvy), which will look sharp with your spinning wheel covers. (2) Bragging rights. OK, you were behind the curve with cell phones, iPods, thong underwear, etc. Nitrogen in tires is relatively new to the mass market. Now's your chance. (3) Reduced fire danger next time you land your space shuttle or commercial aircraft, and tell me you won't sleep better knowing that.
Most tires are filled with compressed air, which when dry consists of about 78 percent nitrogen, 21 percent oxygen, and 1 percent other gases by volume. Water vapor (humidity) can make up as much as 5 percent of the volume of air under worst-case conditions. Filling your tires with nitrogen mainly does two things: it eliminates moisture, and it replaces skinny oxygen molecules with fat nitrogen molecules, reducing the rate at which compressed gas diffuses through porous tire walls. That means, theoretically at least, that a tire filled with nitrogen retains optimal pressure longer, leading to more uniform tire wear and better gas mileage. The commonly quoted figure is that tires inflated to 32 psi get 3 percent better mileage than at 24 psi.
Does nitrogen make any practical difference? You couldn't prove it by me. I found no scientific tests showing that nitrogen-filled tires stayed inflated longer than average under normal conditions. A car-buff buddy was sure it worked but conceded he had only anecdotal evidence that it did.
As for moisture, changes in humidity affect tire performance two ways. First, the density of humid air fluctuates more with temperature than that of dry air, so removing humidity can keep your tire pressure more consistent, especially when the temperature climbs over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. That may be a legitimate concern in Formula One racing, but it's not much of an issue if you're just tooling around town.
Humidity can also be a factor in wheel maintenance - since pure nitrogen doesn't have moisture in it, supposedly your wheels won't rust as quickly, which could lead to improved wheel performance and air sealing. The question is, how big a problem is wheel rust these days? According to a few tire and wheel shops we contacted, not very. Seriously rusted wheels are uncommon in typical steel-wheeled cars, and many high-performance cars have alloy wheels that don't rust at all. One exception is work vehicles such as dump trucks, which are exposed to a much harsher environment.
Another claim I've seen is that since nitrogen is slightly lighter than air, you'll save weight and get better performance. However, we're talking about a weight difference of less than 4 percent of the gas in the tire - in other words, a difference of less than an ounce for most vehicles. A possibly more realistic benefit is that nitrogen is largely inert chemically at low (i.e., normal) temperatures, so it won't attack the rubber in your tires like oxygen does. Oxygen attack is something both the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Ford Research have studied, and can be a problem for tires used for a long time or in rough conditions.
More important, nitrogen doesn't support combustion, which is one reason aircraft and the space shuttle use nitrogen in their tires. The wisdom of this precaution was brought home by the crash of Mexicana Airlines flight 940 on March 31, 1986. Shortly after the Boeing 727 took off from Mexico City en route to Puerto Vallarta, an overheated landing-gear brake caused a tire improperly filled with air instead of nitrogen to overheat as well and explode, rupturing fuel and hydraulic lines. The ensuing fire and crash killed 167 passengers and crew. However, unless your driving habits are of the X-treme variety, the chances of your tires catching fire anytime soon are slim.
Overall, filling up with nitrogen won't hurt and may provide some minimal benefit. Is it worth it? If you go to some place like Costco that does it for free with new tires, sure, why not? Elsewhere, though, I've seen prices quoted as high as $10 per tire, which is way more than I'd pay. Rather than shell out for nitrogen, you'd be better off just checking and adjusting your tire pressure regularly, something the NHTSA says less than 60 percent of U.S. motorists actually do.
(Im a Material engineer) Im a geek for this stuff!!! LOL
Oh, there are plenty of benefits: (1) Cool fluorescent green valve stem caps (assuming your nitrogen vendor has any marketing savvy), which will look sharp with your spinning wheel covers. (2) Bragging rights. OK, you were behind the curve with cell phones, iPods, thong underwear, etc. Nitrogen in tires is relatively new to the mass market. Now's your chance. (3) Reduced fire danger next time you land your space shuttle or commercial aircraft, and tell me you won't sleep better knowing that.
Most tires are filled with compressed air, which when dry consists of about 78 percent nitrogen, 21 percent oxygen, and 1 percent other gases by volume. Water vapor (humidity) can make up as much as 5 percent of the volume of air under worst-case conditions. Filling your tires with nitrogen mainly does two things: it eliminates moisture, and it replaces skinny oxygen molecules with fat nitrogen molecules, reducing the rate at which compressed gas diffuses through porous tire walls. That means, theoretically at least, that a tire filled with nitrogen retains optimal pressure longer, leading to more uniform tire wear and better gas mileage. The commonly quoted figure is that tires inflated to 32 psi get 3 percent better mileage than at 24 psi.
Does nitrogen make any practical difference? You couldn't prove it by me. I found no scientific tests showing that nitrogen-filled tires stayed inflated longer than average under normal conditions. A car-buff buddy was sure it worked but conceded he had only anecdotal evidence that it did.
As for moisture, changes in humidity affect tire performance two ways. First, the density of humid air fluctuates more with temperature than that of dry air, so removing humidity can keep your tire pressure more consistent, especially when the temperature climbs over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. That may be a legitimate concern in Formula One racing, but it's not much of an issue if you're just tooling around town.
Humidity can also be a factor in wheel maintenance - since pure nitrogen doesn't have moisture in it, supposedly your wheels won't rust as quickly, which could lead to improved wheel performance and air sealing. The question is, how big a problem is wheel rust these days? According to a few tire and wheel shops we contacted, not very. Seriously rusted wheels are uncommon in typical steel-wheeled cars, and many high-performance cars have alloy wheels that don't rust at all. One exception is work vehicles such as dump trucks, which are exposed to a much harsher environment.
Another claim I've seen is that since nitrogen is slightly lighter than air, you'll save weight and get better performance. However, we're talking about a weight difference of less than 4 percent of the gas in the tire - in other words, a difference of less than an ounce for most vehicles. A possibly more realistic benefit is that nitrogen is largely inert chemically at low (i.e., normal) temperatures, so it won't attack the rubber in your tires like oxygen does. Oxygen attack is something both the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Ford Research have studied, and can be a problem for tires used for a long time or in rough conditions.
More important, nitrogen doesn't support combustion, which is one reason aircraft and the space shuttle use nitrogen in their tires. The wisdom of this precaution was brought home by the crash of Mexicana Airlines flight 940 on March 31, 1986. Shortly after the Boeing 727 took off from Mexico City en route to Puerto Vallarta, an overheated landing-gear brake caused a tire improperly filled with air instead of nitrogen to overheat as well and explode, rupturing fuel and hydraulic lines. The ensuing fire and crash killed 167 passengers and crew. However, unless your driving habits are of the X-treme variety, the chances of your tires catching fire anytime soon are slim.
Overall, filling up with nitrogen won't hurt and may provide some minimal benefit. Is it worth it? If you go to some place like Costco that does it for free with new tires, sure, why not? Elsewhere, though, I've seen prices quoted as high as $10 per tire, which is way more than I'd pay. Rather than shell out for nitrogen, you'd be better off just checking and adjusting your tire pressure regularly, something the NHTSA says less than 60 percent of U.S. motorists actually do.
Watch a federal mandate go across the board on nitrogen use from tire centers on new tire installs. They know 90 percent of drivers dont check them.
Like I said you'll can call it BS if you want, but I work with this EVERYDAY. As a service writer at a dealership that did not fill their tires with Nitrogen and fought TPMs lights all day long, sometimes 5-6 a day, I can say nitrogen cut this down to 1-2 a day. On commission you don't make money wasting time to fill someones tires up for them. Nitrogen filled tires has almost eliminated this trouble from our customers. With Nitrogen the technicians look for the low tire and the nail that is in it. Very seldom do we see the tire fluctuations that we were seeing with regular air.
The same ones that are calling foul on N20 are probably the ones I see that don't believe in transmission services, differential services, power steering flushes, brake flushes, coolant flushes and the like.
The same ones that are calling foul on N20 are probably the ones I see that don't believe in transmission services, differential services, power steering flushes, brake flushes, coolant flushes and the like.
All aircraft, at least in the navy use nitrogen because it will not expand and contract like compressed air will. You may not realize this but, this is REALLY important to planes not blowing tires when they land and thus, killing people. An aircraft at 36,000 ft has an ambient air temp of about -76°F, when the plane lands the brakes that are at most 2 inches from the nitrogen in the tire almost instantly heat up 1500°F and sometimes hotter and in my aircraft community there has never been a tire blowout due too hot brakes.
1. MAJOR REASON: Air has oxygen and Nitrogen does not. This is a safety benefit - if an airplane experiences extreme brake energies either due to overspeed landing, overweight landing, or short field landing the wheel assembly heats up to extreme temperatures. Eliminating Oxygen from the tires reduces the possibility of fire by removing the oxidizer.
2. SIDE-BENEFIT: Moisture content. If oxidizer was not a concern, then airplanes could just use DRY air which would be cheaper. But nitrogen having an extremely low moisture content is a benefit for an airplane because at altitude (~20,000 feet +), the air temperatures are EXTREMELY cold, like 60 or 70 below zero. At these temperatures, freezing of the moisture in the tires could present a problem. This is because in an airplane application - the tires go from their coldest temp to their maximum performance and temp in an instant (touchdown). An unbalanced wheel that has ice in it has no chance to warm up and could cause a problem on landing and rollout.
X2 He is correct and as a Professional Jet Mech I can say that. Waste of money to put in tires of trucks and cars unless you live in extreme cold areas.
2. SIDE-BENEFIT: Moisture content. If oxidizer was not a concern, then airplanes could just use DRY air which would be cheaper. But nitrogen having an extremely low moisture content is a benefit for an airplane because at altitude (~20,000 feet +), the air temperatures are EXTREMELY cold, like 60 or 70 below zero. At these temperatures, freezing of the moisture in the tires could present a problem. This is because in an airplane application - the tires go from their coldest temp to their maximum performance and temp in an instant (touchdown). An unbalanced wheel that has ice in it has no chance to warm up and could cause a problem on landing and rollout.
X2 He is correct and as a Professional Jet Mech I can say that. Waste of money to put in tires of trucks and cars unless you live in extreme cold areas.
and they say us airframers are dumb LOL
Mechs and Framers may not be the smartest of the Sailor breed, but we have the most common sense of them all, we maybe Dumb, but we ain't PLUMB Dumb!, LOL.
haha yeah, very true... Like those AT's man are they worthless! Recently, I have been doing more stuff around the house like messing with my computer and other Tech-ish type activities and that stuff is EASY. They just have everyone fooled thinking that the are "smart". Sorry to hijack, I'm horrible about running down random rabbit trails.
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