[stumpy55]

Anyone out there burning veggie oil in there Cummins? I read alot about how great it is, I'd like to learn more about the negatives.

 

[NSXTASY]

u dont want to run any veggie oil in a common rail engine, especially now that winter is here... On the older IDI engines, maybe, with a two-tank system and modifications, but not on a 3rd gen RAM cummins engine.

 

[slide187]

u dont want to run any veggie oil in a common rail engine, especially now that winter is here... On the older IDI engines, maybe, with a two-tank system and modifications, but not on a 3rd gen RAM cummins engine.

Hey NS,

Can you expand on why? The Veg system can't (or shouldn't) be switched to until the VO is above 140 deg anyways. And then it behaves like diesel, and BioDiesel (which i noticed you run) but it has no adverse chemical properties with respect to the rubber in the engine components, like biodiesel.

Not to mention that you have to backflush the veg system with diesel at shut-down leaving no veg oil in the fuel circuit. You actually end up w/ a little diesel in your veg tank.

It just seems to me like the outside temp, AND type of injection system is irrelevant beyond a method of accessing it, since the veg gets in its own tank heated prior to using it, and flushed out after using it.

 

[DodgeThis_AZ]

I have no first hand experience with SVO, but from what I’ve read it can be a royal pain in the ass. First of all, you need two tanks. I have two tanks, but I still wouldn’t run SVO in my truck. The PSI of our fuel system can cause problems with SVO b/c of its viscosity. Running SVO can cause problems with the injectors as they were not designed for the oil. And even so, SVO still dose not combust the same or as fully.

If I was going to run SVO, I would get a professional single-tank system. These systems include heavy duty glow plugs, and specially made injector nozzles to ensure the oil is sprayed evenly and the oil burns fully. I don’t know if they make one for the Cummins, but ELSBETT makes a kit for the MB 3.0L. I’ve seen the system on a Chrysler 300 in England.

Do you tuck s favor, run BioDiesel in it. SVO is such a pain and will cost you a lot more.

 

[slide187]

The research i've done tells me that to install the VO system proffessionally will cost me about $2700. To get the filtration stuff to do it at home will cost me another $900. so say $3600. with the 40 gal tank, That system will pay for itself in just under 6 months (assuming Diesel stays at or above $3.45/gal.. which it will) and i'd be saving around $850-ish a month compared to diesel.

Now... if i didn't get the filtration equip and just decided to buy filtered VO from the place who does the install, it's $1.25/gal... i'd STILL be saving $650-ish a month over Diesel.

I've read about the Biodiesel home-brew equipment, way more expensive, and way more hazardous, and the footprint is way bigger than the VO stuff, which is not nearly as hazardous as the ethanol component. not to mention i have an in-law appt above my garage to think about safety-wise. and if you actually purchase BioDiesel, it's more expensive than D2 which defeats most of the purpose.

Beyond all that stuff, the answer i need is: What is so different about the common rail injection system that raises an eyebrow with respect to VO? it's my understanding that the higher the pressure, the more combustible these types of fuels are, and as long as the VO is filtered and warmed up properly before actual use, the more like Diesel it'll behave.

Obviously it would not ever be worth shortening the life span of my Cummins, but no one has said that would be the case factually. All Diesel engines were designed to run on a few different fuel types, including SVO, and Biodiesel.

Grease Car makes a system for the Cummins Common Rail engines now, and it's been installed in 04's 05's and 06's that i have seen.

And after it all.... with the Veg system in my truck, i could run Diesel, BioDiesel, AND SVO... That bitch'll be a triple hybrid! i imagine the only thing more versitile is Doc Brown's DeLorean - after the Mr. Fusion mod of course.

 

[NSXTASY]

Hey NS,

Can you expand on why? The Veg system can't (or shouldn't) be switched to until the VO is above 140 deg anyways. And then it behaves like diesel, and BioDiesel (which i noticed you run) but it has no adverse chemical properties with respect to the rubber in the engine components, like biodiesel.

Not to mention that you have to backflush the veg system with diesel at shut-down leaving no veg oil in the fuel circuit. You actually end up w/ a little diesel in your veg tank.

It just seems to me like the outside temp, AND type of injection system is irrelevant beyond a method of accessing it, since the veg gets in its own tank heated prior to using it, and flushed out after using it.

hey there. first off, 140 *F is not close to being hot enough. Problem is that's the heat regulation of the cooling system, so you would need somehow to add energy and heat way above 140 *F. That's not all your problems howeber... Why ? (1) because even at 140 *F, the viscosity of SVO or WVO is nowhere close to #2 or biodiesel. (2) if you take a good look at your engine, you will realize that all that metal will act as a heat sink. Especially at the common rail. In order to be even at 140*F for the SVO, the temperature will initally require be much higher than that for a substantial time so that the SVO is at the right temperature when about to be injected. (3) Common rails are not designed to operate at those temperature. All metals and rubbers dilate with heat and the tolerances where designed to work at much lower temperatures that SVO/WVO are required to be. (4) injectors on common rail diesel spray several times per cycle at much higher pressures than on IDI engines. The spray patterns must be correct. Without proper injectors designed for a 17x more viscous fuel, incorrect patterns will not allow correct firing. There are many other reasons why, and you can find them with a little research. If you must run SVO/WVO in a diesel truck engine, the popular choice is the 7.3L powerstroke engine which was really working great with it.

 

[slide187]

So then these guys are BS-ing? They install VO systems, and sell filtered VO as well as BioDiesel...

"Is vegetable oil safe to use in a diesel engine?
Yes! Rudolf Diesel tested his very efficient engine with a variety of fuels, including petroleum oils and vegetable oils. Vegetable oils burn best at temperatures between 140° and 190°F."

"At Evergreen Motors, we promote a 2-tank conversion system. This system has heated components to get the vegetable oil up to a proper combustion temperature (140-190 F). You start the vehicle in “diesel” mode, pulling fuel from the factory diesel tank, then switch over to the “veggie” tank when the system is heated up. At the end of your drive, you switch to a “backflush” or “purge” mode, which flushes the system with diesel again."

http://www.greasewrench.com/faqs.html

 

[NSXTASY]

I would not call it "BS-ing" as there has been several (appearently) successfull conversion of common-rail trucks. If it's about saving the environment, then very little I say will make any difference. But if it's to save $$$, then the question becomes "Do you want to pay a little less now and lot later, or more $$$ a little at a time ?". When the pump fails, it's going to be big $$$, probably negating any savings you might have done until then. I'm a Mechanical Engineer and I believe I understand hydraulics theory, thermodynamics and how pumps work. Pushing a fluid with a much higher viscosity, higher octane, higher flashpoint, at a higher temperature, at very high pressures can only reduce life and increase tear & wear on a pump not designed to operate in these conditions in the first place. I just wouldnt risk mine in my truck. Many others that I know and respect think the same. Not saying it cant be done, it's just not good for the fuel system. Dont get me wrong, I run veggie in my IDI Mercedes and loving it.
Check this out.

 

[slide187]

I've read that site a few times... alot of the pump failures and things like that were from people who run BioDiesel. which, lets face it, is VO too, just with some ethanol in it, which obviously lowers the viscosity, as does pre-warming the VO. What is the normal temp range at which the common rails were designed to operate? because i thought that the autoignition temp of Diesel #2 was somewhere around 490*F. And how hot do you think the VO needs to get b4 injection?

Plus these guys are all talkin about blending diesel with WVO, BioDiesel with WVO (which to me seems redundant) even WVO with RUG (which is stupid cause RUG has higher Octane than Cetane. They're inverse indexes, so adding this to WVO is like tossin some milk in your OJ, like you or I, your truck will eventually puke) PLUS, they're all doin it thru single tank systems....

And it seems to me none of this should matter with a two tank system that has separate fuel lines, separate pumps, separate filters, which were designed for VO and especially since the Veg system gets flushed out with good old fashioned high Cetane Diesel at the end of each drive... which makes me also ask the question, how can Biodiesel be any less damaging to a common rail when you start, run, and shut-down the system with it? it gels way higher than straight diesel, and you have no secondary system with which to flush it all out of the fuel line, it just sits there until the next time you drive. How's that better?

As far as the environmental aspect goes... I'm glad it happens to be pro-earth, but I've been all over this almost used-up planet of ours and the only people who even pretend to care about it are Americans and Europeans and its only a small percentage of us, everyone else still tosses their trash over their shoulder cause it's "not their problem". For me it mostly comes down to my money, or lack there of!

I don't know... it's startin to go way over my head now... everybody can't be right, and everybody can't be wrong... Guess it's gonna take another 6 months or so of research.

Thanks for the different point of view on it. gives me some new questions to ask the installers.

 

[NSXTASY]

I've read that site a few times... alot of the pump failures and things like that were from people who run BioDiesel. which, lets face it, is VO too, just with some ethanol in it, which obviously lowers the viscosity, as does pre-warming the VO.

Huh ?!? :huh: please go back to that site and read more. There seems to be a few things you missed about Biodiesel...

What is the normal temp range at which the common rails were designed to operate? because i thought that the autoignition temp of Diesel #2 was somewhere around 490*F. And how hot do you think the VO needs to get b4 injection?

The common rails are operating at fuel temperature, which can vary from very cold (think cold morning in winter in Canada) to warm. Actually, the entire system is designed so that the flow of fuel has a cooling effect. The temperature at the common rail is nowhere near the flashpoint of diesel as it's nowhere near the combustion chamber. VO needs to be as hot as possible so that its viscosity matches diesel fuel viscosity. Depending on the feedstock, you may need temps closer to 275-300F or higher.

Plus these guys are all talkin about blending diesel with WVO, BioDiesel with WVO (which to me seems redundant) even WVO with RUG (which is stupid cause RUG has higher Octane than Cetane. They're inverse indexes, so adding this to WVO is like tossin some milk in your OJ, like you or I, your truck will eventually puke) PLUS, they're all doin it thru single tank systems....

:huh:
Bio with VO is a very bad idea. btw bio+VO is NOT redundant. We are talking about two different chemically fatty chains with different chemical and physical properties.

And it seems to me none of this should matter with a two tank system that has separate fuel lines, separate pumps, separate filters, which were designed for VO and especially since the Veg system gets flushed out with good old fashioned high Cetane Diesel at the end of each drive... which makes me also ask the question, how can Biodiesel be any less damaging to a common rail when you start, run, and shut-down the system with it? it gels way higher than straight diesel, and you have no secondary system with which to flush it all out of the fuel line, it just sits there until the next time you drive. How's that better?

Once you reach the IP, it's the same hardware, either you are using D2 or VO. This's the most expensive item in your fuel system and which is going to eventually go bad. Bio does not harm IPs like VO does. Without additives, #2 diesel is not that much better than straight bio. Biodiesel clouds faster than #2, but stays cloudy longer than #2 does. The b99 bio I make stays clear all the way down to 37F and only gels if put in the freezer.

[...] Guess it's gonna take another 6 months or so of research.

Thanks for the different point of view on it. gives me some new questions to ask the installers.

yes, imho you need more reading and research on the subject. good luck whatever your decision is...

 

[durango13]

I've read that site a few times... alot of the pump failures and things like that were from people who run BioDiesel. which, lets face it, is VO too, just with some ethanol in it, which obviously lowers the viscosity, as does pre-warming the VO. What is the normal temp range at which the common rails were designed to operate? because i thought that the autoignition temp of Diesel #2 was somewhere around 490*F. And how hot do you think the VO needs to get b4 injection?

If you read into those sites more you should see that pump faliures are rare and are prevented by replacing the fuel pump and filter shortly after switching from normal Diesel to bio-diesel. When you use bio it breaks down residue buildups that normal diesel can leave behind.... these deposits can get sucked up by the pump and THAT is when faluire occurs.... so as long as you listen to what they tell you and replace the pump after switching you wont have faluire and the crap that comes along with it

 

[slide187]

I've read that site a few times... alot of the pump failures and things like that were from people who run BioDiesel. which, lets face it, is VO too, just with some ethanol in it, which obviously lowers the viscosity, as does pre-warming the VO. What is the normal temp range at which the common rails were designed to operate? because i thought that the autoignition temp of Diesel #2 was somewhere around 490*F. And how hot do you think the VO needs to get b4 injection?

If you read into those sites more you should see that pump faliures are rare and are prevented by replacing the fuel pump and filter shortly after switching from normal Diesel to bio-diesel. When you use bio it breaks down residue buildups that normal diesel can leave behind.... these deposits can get sucked up by the pump and THAT is when faluire occurs.... so as long as you listen to what they tell you and replace the pump after switching you wont have faluire and the crap that comes along with it

Thanks dude, but my question is about SVO... not BioDiesel... NX referred me to that site casue he brews his own Biodiesel and we were discussing the differences between the two.. he was making his case for Biodiesel cause he uses it... that option will not work for me because of 1. the fact that it requires storing, using and disposal of hazmats like Methanol, and Lye. i have a 2-yr old, and my garage has an in-law appt above it... it's simply not an option. plus i've talked to some specialists about my original concerns... and the stuff i learned from NX... changing fuel filters is kind of common sense.. I was in Iraq for a year, and while there we switched the hummers from diesel to JP-8, and that's all we did for the first two months on ground... change out fuel filters....Plus the veg oil system has its own pump and filter. so the point is moot.

Thanks for your thoughs tho.

 

[swampfox]

wvo

stumpy55 just for 2 cents i have been running wvo in my 01 dodge for 3 months now the temp is about 20 to 40 deg here in ca where i live i hve burned up around 100 gals of wvo so far and have only changed 3 fuel filters that is the only thing that i have tbl with the truck seems to run better and have more power when into the throdle havent had and hard pulls with it yet i do ever have a 10k fith wheel that i pull with it but havent had it on it yet that all i have to say will talk more about it if you want tks swampfox

 

[g-funk]

u dont want to run any veggie oil in a common rail engine, especially now that winter is here... On the older IDI engines, maybe, with a two-tank system and modifications, but not on a 3rd gen RAM cummins engine.

I've got a friend that's building a new trail buggy and is wondering about a svo/wvo system for a GM 6.2. I really haven't read anything about it with this engine. any thoughts?

 

[NSXTASY]

I've got a friend that's building a new trail buggy and is wondering about a svo/wvo system for a GM 6.2. I really haven't read anything about it with this engine. any thoughts?

the 6.2 is a IDI engine, not a common rail. Many folks with older suburbans or vans with the 6.2 have installed a two tank system and have never had troubles. Some have had to change the lift pump or the injector pump ($$$) but the larger majority have been trouble free. Any IDI engine is a good candidate for WVO/SVO, as long as the conversion is done right.

 

[NSXTASY]

Plus the veg oil system has its own pump and filter. so the point is moot.

The pump you are referring to is the lift pump. yes, a two tank system uses 2 lift pumps and two secondary filters, sometimes, even two tank pickup filters. But once the WVO or D2 reaches the 6 port valve, everything afterwards is common to both the WVO and D2. That's the primary filter and the Injector Pump. The latter usually costs big $$$ if it fails. So his point is not totally moot imho.

 

[burritoboi5]

If you're saving 850 a month on diesel that would help to offset the price of an injection pump quite nicely..... I plan on running SVO in a two tank system once I find a truck to put it on.

 

[dieselracer]

Pushing a fluid with a much higher viscosity, higher octane, higher flashpoint, at a higher temperature, at very high pressures can only reduce life and increase tear & wear on a pump not designed to operate in these conditions in the first place.

I agree that if you are putting an exceptionally large load on a pump that you stand the chance of wearing it out prematurely. But remember that VO has way more lubricant in it than #2 diesel. I've read a lot of articles that talk of reduced diesel engine noise when running on WVO, because of the lubricity. I think the biggest issue you would have to deal with that I have heard, is the VO not wanting to spray out of the injectors as well as D2, therefore causing excessive carbon buildup in your combustion chamber and on the tip of the injectors. Even if nobody makes a readily available WVO kit for a Common rail Cummins, maybe you could take your injectors to a Cummins dealer that does injector and pump rebuilds and have them rework the nozzles to allow for the higher viscosity. Another thing to look into is possibly using a larger common rail pump from somebody like Industrial Injection, not for power but for extra volume. The bigger pump is designed to move large volumes of D2, I would think that it might help to move a smaller volume of a thicker liquid. I haven't done much research on this topic, but from what I have seen, most of the VO systems use a hose in hose system to deliver hot VO. Which would be okay if your commute to and from work was like 60 miles. But mine is 6. If I were to build my own kit I would probably lean toward making some sort of small tank with an electric oil heater under the hood that could heat a small amount of oil quickly to 150 or better and just keep that tank full by pumping WVO from the larger in bed storage tank. If that were the case, I am thinking I could still start the truck on D2 to get the alternator turning enough to get some power output for said heater. On another note, one of the first things that any mechanic or engineer learns is that pressure causes heat/friction(I'm not looking for the exact words, just the theory). That is the whole principal of how a diesel engine fires. If that is true then there is absolutely no way that 24,000 PSI of any type of fuel can remain cool in a common rail. Am I right? Maybe some of the equipment on common rail Cummins engines will wear faster with WVO, but some of it will also last longer. If there is a will there is a way. We had men on the moon in the sixties, I think that a few of us can figure out how to burn veggie oil in an engine originally designed to run on peanut oil.

 

[slide187]

Well boys,

First... AMEN dieselracer!!!

Second.... Its done!!! After alot of research, I did it... I have Greasecar's (www.greasecar.com) new Cummins 3rd Gen Common Rail WVO 2 tank system in my 04 2500.


Integrated into the Diesel circuit, with a 40 Gal Diamond plate veg tank in the bed, and fancy USB computer interface on the dash (soon to be mounted in the headliner) The system's up and running and I now pay $1.25/gal for filtered waste VO right near boston. Every now and then i'll be paying $4.89/gal for Diesel, but not often enough to give an F about it.

Mileage and power are the same with both fuels. The only bareley noticable changes are the quieter sound of the engine and the smell of the clean exhaust.

In 4 more months the system will have paid for itself and the real savings can start. And YES burritoboi5, when you're saving almost $900/mo not buying Diesel, repairs won't be too too much of a prob either, tho the guys at Greasecar - who invented this system stand behind their system's design.

Here's how i estimated the savings, before i get berated on that:

34 gallon Diesel tank = $166.26 @ $4.75/gal (cheaper for argument's sake)
approx 8 fill ups a month with my standard commute = $1,330.08/mo

40 Gal Veg Tank = $50 @ $1.25/gal (that's right $50...from bone dry to full)
approx 6 fill ups/mo = $350
and it's not this often but we'll say 1/2 tank of Diesel a month = $83.13
total with new system per month is $433.13

a savings per month of $896.95




Here are some pics....

questions? bashing?

 

[NSXTASY]

We had men on the moon in the sixties, I think that a few of us can figure out how to burn veggie oil in an engine originally designed to run on peanut oil.

Comparing the original ignition-combustion engine by Dr. Diesel to a 3rd gen CRD Cummins engine is laughable. Y'all seem to forget that I'm also running very successfully VO in my old mercedes. So, I'm not against SVO or WVO like some make it sound. But running SVO/WVO in a CRD engine is just asking for trouble, imho. :gr_patrio