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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anyone had any problems or unusual wear on your main bearings from running a underdrive pulley. Since this throws the balance of the factory designed balance. And I was recently told that AEM does not sell underdrive pulleys for that very reason. Any comments?
 

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The pulley has nothing to do with balance on a neon. It is not a harmonic balancer.

I have a UDP and I have had zero problems with it.
 

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Agreed - not a balancer. Balancers are typically keyed to the shaft. Ours are pressed. If they were a balancing assembly, any slippage would cause problems.

over 100k miles with the UDP on, zero issues. I can take bearing clearances for you if you want when I tear it down later this year... Not expecting anything abnormal...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I understand that the factory pulley has no harmonic capabilities, but the design process accounts for the weight distribution for the factory parts, and I'm assuming that the CAD software specs the weight for some measure of balance in the process, since most Auto manufacturing processes do. And since I am doing a complete lower rebuild, Bore Job, New Pistons, New Rods, UDP, etc, I will be dramatically affecting the factory design specs, which is what drove the question. And since I am sinking a considerable amount of my hard earned green, I've decided to go ahead and have the entire bottom balanced with the new UDP just to be on the safe side. I'm estimating that I will have to have weight added to the lower lobes since I'm changing to forged pistons & rods which will increase the weight in general on the lower unit, and be loosing weight by using the UDP. Thanks for the input.
 

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I know this is off topic But....

EZ4U2CHere the whight Neon in ya Sig, do you solo race it? I see numbers and looks like a Orange cone in the background
 

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TunerNeon said:
I know this is off topic But....

EZ4U2CHere the whight Neon in ya Sig, do you solo race it? I see numbers and looks like a Orange cone in the background
Yes, I race it. SOLO II Autocross in STS class. Recently started road course too.

 

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Kev's Neon said:
I understand that the factory pulley has no harmonic capabilities, but the design process accounts for the weight distribution for the factory parts, and I'm assuming that the CAD software specs the weight for some measure of balance in the process, since most Auto manufacturing processes do. And since I am doing a complete lower rebuild, Bore Job, New Pistons, New Rods, UDP, etc, I will be dramatically affecting the factory design specs, which is what drove the question. And since I am sinking a considerable amount of my hard earned green, I've decided to go ahead and have the entire bottom balanced with the new UDP just to be on the safe side. I'm estimating that I will have to have weight added to the lower lobes since I'm changing to forged pistons & rods which will increase the weight in general on the lower unit, and be loosing weight by using the UDP. Thanks for the input.
Why do you insist on asking a specific question, then disregarding the answers you receive with your own answer. If you already think you know the answer, then why even post?

I'm not trying to be an ass, but seriously.

And just how much research have you done on neons? And not just neons, the 2.0l? By reading your posts I can tell it isn't much. If you put much effort into it at all you would already know that you are wasting a lot of money in a 2.0l when you could put it all into a 2.4l, have more torque, more hp, and more reliability.

But just ignore that, because you probably already have your own answer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
EZ4U2CHere said:
Why do you insist on asking a specific question, then disregarding the answers you receive with your own answer. If you already think you know the answer, then why even post?
For confirmation and discussion, I have occasionally been wrong :). But when the answer or opinion is not based on any sound engineering pricipals or quantifiable numbers, I tend to go with my initial plans. But when a compelling or quantifable argument can be made, I will, and have changed my plan. As an engineer I believe in the application of scientific and mathematical principles in the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.


EZ4U2CHere said:
I'm not trying to be an ass, but seriously.
Must come natural then :D

EZ4U2CHere said:
And just how much research have you done on neons? And not just neons, the 2.0l? By reading your posts I can tell it isn't much.
Partially correct, only about 12months on this one. The intent of this project was to keep the original motor, and N/A, and get the most out of it.

EZ4U2CHere said:
If you put much effort into it at all you would already know that you are wasting a lot of money in a 2.0l when you could put it all into a 2.4l, have more torque, more hp, and more reliability.
They must not teach logical thinking in todays schools.
1. What money is being wasted? Waste is defined individually, just because you can't afford it does not mean I can't.
2. "more reliability" is a subjective term. You have any numbers to back that up. Statistically a properlly cared for 2.4l is no more or less reliable than a properly cared for 2.0l.

EZ4U2CHere said:
But just ignore that, because you probably already have your own answer.
In this case I will, but thanks for the input.

BTW (Forum = A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.) On many of these subjects I am a mere member of the audience seeking to gain knowledge (Not opinions, I've got enough of my own) from the experts.


And I asked for comments and individual experience, not opinions, although I seem to take those better than some here, eh!
 

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Kev's Neon said:
For confirmation and discussion, I have occasionally been wrong :). But when the answer or opinion is not based on any sound engineering pricipals or quantifiable numbers, I tend to go with my initial plans. But when a compelling or quantifable argument can be made, I will, and have changed my plan. As an engineer I believe in the application of scientific and mathematical principles in the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.
I'm sorry, but did you just say you were an engineer? It really is hard to believe you are an Engineer. To think, I have the same title as you is insulting to me. It's hard to believe an "Engineer" was going to put an "OEM" CAI on his/her car (whatever an "OEM" CAI is), along with a Vibrant exhaust, CNC header, 0010 cams, and OEM coil overs (still trying to find those BTW). Wow, that's some money well spent! Oh, I forgot there was something about some cross drilled rotors too. Oh, and we definitely can't forget the strut tower bars. And just how are you going to achieve 10,000+ RPM I think is what you said?



Kev's Neon said:
Must come natural then :D
Glad you took notice




Partially correct, only about 12months on this one. The intent of this project was to keep the original motor, and N/A, and get the most out of it.
12 months?* You are kidding right?
*read 1st part of response





Kev's Neon said:
They must not teach logical thinking in todays schools.
I wouldn't know. It's been a while since I've been in school. They did teach it when I was in though. Thanks for your concern.

Kev's Neon said:
1. What money is being wasted? Waste is defined individually, just because you can't afford it does not mean I can't.
Oh what, now are we going to compare savings and checking accounts? 401k's? Stocks and Bonds? IRA's? What does wealth or lack of wealth have to do with this?
Do they not teach vocabulary in school anymore?
waste
v. wast•ed, wast•ing, wastes
v. tr.
To use, consume, spend, or expend thoughtlessly or carelessly.

No need to answer. I answered my own question. Oh no, I'm starting to be like you.




Kev's Neon said:
2. "more reliability" is a subjective term. You have any numbers to back that up. Statistically a properlly cared for 2.4l is no more or less reliable than a properly cared for 2.0l.
Ummmm wrong. You are no longer talking about an unmodified 2.0l or 2.4l now are you? Just look at the componenents on the market and use your engineering skills to determine the answer to that.




Kev's Neon said:
In this case I will, but thanks for the input.
That was the obvious. No need to change.




Kev's Neon said:
BTW (Forum = A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.) On many of these subjects I am a mere member of the audience seeking to gain knowledge (Not opinions, I've got enough of my own) from the experts.
Welcome to the Internet. Glad you found it :wavey:





Kev's Neon said:
And I asked for comments and individual experience, not opinions, although I seem to take those better than some here, eh!
Who said I didn't have individual experience? Not me. And if you didn't want comments of opinions, then why did you ask for them?

Anyway, happy building!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
EZ4U2CHere said:
I'm sorry, but did you just say you were an engineer? It really is hard to believe you are an Engineer. To think, I have the same title as you is insulting to me.
Can't say I've ever meet an admin that was much of an engineer or they would be working as such. But that's beside the point.

EZ4U2CHere said:
It's hard to believe an "Engineer" was going to put an "OEM" CAI on his/her car (whatever an "OEM" CAI is), along with a Vibrant exhaust, CNC header, 0010 cams, and OEM coil overs (still trying to find those BTW).
Most engineers would know that OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer, hince Dodge = Mopar

EZ4U2CHere said:
Oh, and we definitely can't forget the strut tower bars.
What strut bars do.
For this calculation only horizontal forces need be considered. There are of course vertical forces, but since the sum of forces must independently equal zero in both the horizontal and vertical directions, we can concentrate on just the horizontal forces in this analysis.

We must begin by making some assumptions. First, consider a vehicle cornering such that it experiences 100% weight transfer at the front wheels. This is not at all unusual on a modified vehicle. We have probably all seen pictures of a performance vehicle in a turn with its inside front wheel in the air. That is a sure sign of 100% weight transfer.

Second, let us assume that our vehicle is cornering at 1G. Again, on a modified performance vehicle with R-series tires, this is very plausible. If a vehicle weighs 2700 lbs and has close to a 50/50 weight distribution, then the outside front tire must generate a lateral force of 1350 lbs under the circumstances just outlined.
Thus F1 = 1350 lbs. These forces must sum to zero in the horizontal direction. Also, the sum of the torque's acting on the strut/wheel assembly must cancel out. Our goal is to determine the force F3 which is the force that the strut tower exerts on the strut assembly. There is an equal and opposite force exerted on the strut tower by the strut assembly.

We can solve for F3 if we do a balance of torque's around the outer ball joint (where the control arm attaches to the strut). What we get is:

F1(L2) = F3(L1) or, F3 = F1(L2/L1)

Now, we already know F1 = 1350 lbs. And we can determine L1 and L2 from a quick measurement of a vehicles linkage lengths such as (L1 = 24.3" and L2 =6.0")for an M3. Thus F3 = 333lbs.

So the conclusion is that when an M3 corners at 1G with 100% weight transfer at the front wheels, there is a 333 lb force pulling OUT on the outer strut tower. Since the inside wheel is un-loaded there is no corresponding force generated at the inside strut tower. Therefore a strut tower bar tends to be in tension, not compression as is often believed.

Now we ask ourselves: How critical is a force of 333 lbs pulling on the outer strut tower? This 333 lb load amounts to about 12% of the car's total weight. Even though the strut tower is designed mainly to manage vertical forces , 333 lbs in the horizontal direction is not going to permanently deform the chassis. But the problem is that this force is repeatedly applied over many cycles during the life of the car. The more you drive it hard the more cycles you generate. This can lead to fatigue failure of the material that forms the strut tower (or where the strut tower attaches to the inner fender well). What a strut bar does is tie the two strut towers together so that they share the load applied at the outer tower. This gives you twice as much material to deal with the same cornering force and helps reduce fatigue stress in this area. Another point to consider is that if your outer strut tower is deflected outwards 0.20" by this 333 lb force, then you just lost 0.5° of negative camber! If it deflects 0.42" you have lost a full degree of negative camber.

But like a said an engineer equips himself with valid quantifiable data before making a decision.



EZ4U2CHere said:
And just how are you going to achieve 10,000+ RPM I think is what you said?
Well you think wrong, or don't think.

EZ4U2CHere said:
by Kev's Neon said:
1. What money is being wasted? Waste is defined individually, just because you can't afford it does not mean I can't.

Oh what, now are we going to compare savings and checking accounts? 401k's? Stocks and Bonds? IRA's? What does wealth or lack of wealth have to do with this?
Do they not teach vocabulary in school anymore?
My original point, "thoughtlessly or carelessly", is once again a subjective unit of measure. I guess it's the definition of subjective you need.

EZ4U2CHere said:
Ummmm wrong. You are no longer talking about an unmodified 2.0l or 2.4l now are you? Just look at the componenents on the market and use your engineering skills to determine the answer to that.
If you have numbers to back your claim I'm happy to look at them, same rule applies. Take a 2.0l & 2.4l, make identical mods, maintian identically, statistically they would both have the same potential reliability. But I will leave you to prove that argument, since you are making the claim. Or is it once again just an opinion.

EZ4U2CHere said:
welcome to the Internet. Glad you found it :wavey:
Great place, are'nt you glad I invented it. Although some of the Netizens can be hard to get along with. :thatfunny

EZ4U2CHere said:
Who said I didn't have individual experience? Not me. And if you didn't want comments of opinions, then why did you ask for them?
I did want comments, opinions are welcome, but don't take it personal if I disagree, I don't.

EZ4U2CHere said:
Anyway, happy building!!!
Why thank you, and I will.
 

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Well, this thread could go on forever, so I'll try to keep it short and sweet.

If you must know I am an Engineer. Would you like to see my resume? This is what pays the bills though, and if you really must know, my job title for the job I currently hold is "Network Engineer". A true engineer would never consider one who designs networks using off the shelf equipment an engineer. If that person designed the network equipment, then they deserve to be called an engineer.

It doesn't take an engineer to know what OEM is an acronym for. However; the high school freshman will be able to tell you that an OEM CAI does not exist. I believe the correct term you were trying to use is "Mopar Performance" which equals not original equipment.

Your theory on strut tower bars looks great on paper. A lot of things look great on paper. Getting them to perform as expected is another. If you can throw a neon in a corner hard enough to get any performance out of a strut tower bar, then all the power to you. They are strictly show items on a neon.

Concerning the 2.0 vs 2.4; The 2.4 motor will obviously handle more power than the 2.0 motor before it blows up. Thanks to the SRT-4, high quality internals are available at your local dealer at a very decent price. Like I said before, you are obviously throwing some serious cash into this motor, so why not get all you can get? The 2.4 weighs only 50lbs more than the 2.0, but the torque and hp out weighs the 50 extra lbs. With that said, a 200hp 2.4 will be more reliable than a 200hp 2.0, and you have a lot more room to work with if trying to achieve more hp.

Furthermore, I don't take anything said over the Internet personal, but before I call someone "out" after I asked them to comment I will consider what they have said and research it before jumping to my own conclusions.

I'm done here. No need for you to respond to me.
 

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Non issue

Using a UDpulley if anything should improve the dynamic ballance of the entire
rotating assy. since being a turned part it should have no ballance issues
of its own not to mention less weight hanging out on the end of the crank.
By the way any high end rod or piston set worth even considering will be
VERY close to matched throw weight anyway.
The individual components are ballanced fairly tight already .Since you seem to be planning a LOT of part changes and work in the bottom
end youd be pretty thick to not invest a bit on the final assy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
They also wrote some books and made movies about my love life, it can be seen on the Animal planet. ;). Apes gone wild
 

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WOW! I accually have an OEM CAI system. My OEM airbox is inverted ( the intake opening is pointed up ) and riveted to the firewall with a matching hole cut into the cowl area. It gets fresh air through the cowl grill ( I set the vent on recirculate so all incoming air enters the airbox while racing ). I cut off the spout for the "box-to-TB tube, plugged the hole, and attachted it to the otherside of the box. Thus; an OEM CAI. Here's another cheap trick to block-off your EGR: Remove the EGR tube. Cut the tube and keep the flanges. A nickel ( $.05 U.S. ) fits tightly in the flange recess for the tube. Reinstall the flanges. An EGR block that costs a $.10. Also, with all the big bucks being spent out there....does anybody else have a non-turbo neon that runs consistant 13.8's @ 100+ mph? Almost 2 yrs now spraying my stock 2.0 and no problems. Don't know of any highly modified engine that can do that. Do you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Sounds pretty cool mejneonacr> Gotta love that home grown engineering and ingenuity, and when it works it works, can't argue with that.
 
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