[Nazfrank]

Hi,
I've got a '79 D200, 360, 2 barrel. It has sat for several years so I flushed the tank, installed new pump and lines and filter, kitted the carb, changed the oil and fired her up. ... no start at first with the old sputter/spit as I let the key off of the crank position but I've been there before. I cleaned all the connections, coil, module, ballast etc. and she fired right up.

Ok .. she's running and smooth and quiet. I let her warm up and adjust the idle mixture .. both adjust nicely ... The problem I have is that on a blip of the throttle I get a puff of black smoke. I checked the accelerator pump nozzle output and they are fine from past experience. Nice thin fine stream not dripping down the throat sides or anything. That leaves the power valve as the culprit. I took the carb apart and checked everything and she's looking proper. If the power valve was open I wouldn't have such a fine idle .. I think that my problem is that the power valve is slamming open on a slight vacuum drop. The carb is a 2245 series (pretty sure ..I think that I remember that #). What do I do to cure it ... or ..

At the wrecking yard I spotted a late 70's (my guess) Volare (or similar) wagon. Nice car with factory mags so just for grins, I open the hood and there is a V-8 (I didn't look to see whether it was a 318 or a 360) but it has a good old Quadrajet on a factory 4 barrel intake. I did some quick research and everywhere I look, this should be a thermoquard ?? Yes? No? .. Did the E58 police package in the late 70's run a quadrajet?? Did anything from the factory in the late 70's run a quadrajet? ... should I just grab the intake and carb and put it on .. thoughts .. and thanks

Summary .. I have a good accelerator pump, not dumping excessively so the power valve is where I think the overly rich condition is coming from when I blip the throttle. The 4 barrel intake and carb in the wrecking yard is a non-feedback early Quadrajet (or as some would say .. no wires) that uses an early manifold heat tube for the choke spring. (not a later electric choke cover). This leads me to beleive that it is a stock factory setup as it also had the factory matching air filter housing (single snorkel). ... try and solve the 2 barrel richness or grab the quadrajet 4 barrel setup??

 

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

chevys ran the same carb...just as speed will say..do not get a quad with any wires on it or an electrical connector on the drivers side.. on the accel pump...hone the cylinder with 1200 grit...little trick I always use.

 

[fins2fuselage]

Frank,

Even though some on here will beg to differ, I claim to know a bit about carburetors.

A Holley 2245 has a power valve similar to that of a Rochester 2G if my memory serves me. Barring an in-field metering spring change (unlikely) or the presence of the wrong carb entirely, I doubt that your problem involves the power valve. By and large, that power valve will "slam open" on a slight vacuum drop and is designed to do so -- which is (to my way of thinking) desirable, especially on take-off. One thing the Holley could be doing is sloshing gas into its own throat on take-off. Take the bowl lid off the carb and look to see whether it is "warped away" from the bowl casting at the back where the fuel chamber is separated from the throat. If so, a new gasket won't prevent the fuel in the bowl from sloshing backward on take-off and pouring straight into the throat.

To approach this problem from a different direction: have you tuned-up your ignition yet? The "puff of black smoke" symptom sounds to me as though the engine is getting insufficient/incorrectly-timed spark. Be certain that your vacuum advance is operating and that your timing is set somewhere close to correct. Also, be certain that all of your plugs are firing at off-idle RPMs; you can check this easily with an inductive timing light and a helper.

One more suggestion: most folks are now used to EFI-equipped vehicles, and they tend to forget that carbureted engines did typically produce a puff of black smoke upon take-off. If it is excessive, then yes, it needs attention. But a little bit of rich exhaust is nothing to worry about.

And no, a Volare never came with a Q-jet. Leave that cobble-job in the junkyard -- and avoid T-Quads, too, unless you want to spend a lot of $$$ to have me build it the way the factory should have built it. Otherwise, you will have nothing but headaches . . .

Jeff

 

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

jeff you are so funny....if you really understood carbs then you would never say that about the qJet. i have found in my many years of carbs and i am talking about actual builds...not just idle parts counter gossip...that the qjet was dumbed down in the 80s for chyrsler fuel effeciency but anyone with carb knowledge can bring it back to asphalt kicking wildness. you just cannot stick a quad in a can of gas and blow it out in an hour and expect it to be reliable. This is not meant to be inflammatory jeff, just it takes more to fully understand the Qjet and alot of people never give it a chance.

 

[Nazfrank]

Thank you for the quality answer

Evening Jeff,

Thanks for the quality answer, I would have answered sooner but I was busy hunting down some 1200 grit sandpaper to hone my nice working accelerator pump bore with.

You make a several good points, points that only experience can provide. We can eliminate sloshing fuel in the float bowl as just by coincidence (and from building Solex stuff for my VW's) I actually fitted the top cover without the gasket in place and eye-balled it for fit. As I have yet to drive the truck. The condition is just static, ... sitting. The puff of black smoke is not excessive but it's there and bothers me and yes, I am use to EFI stuff.

I'll give the ignition system a detailed inspection in the morning and report back. One thing I did notice is that when putting plug wires on it several years ago that the firing order on the cap is bumped up almost one hole advanced. I made a mental note to check the timing chain back then but .. but .. but, just plain forgot and then I parked the truck for a vacation. I'l check it for slop in the morning but as is, the truck ran strong and i'm sure it will still when I drive it in the morning.

On the Volare, I can't get that off my mind as it is absolutely a stock set-up and the manifold heated choke ( hot air is drawn into the choke housing via a small vacuum orifice in the carburetor body.. sucking air through the tube going to the manifold) (DiverDwnPowrRam will know about that) .. but that cover says older quadrajet. Is it possible that someone put a later police 360 in the car .. but that would have been an electric choke cover .. yes? This manifold is set up for the heat tube choke carb.

 

[volaredon]

probably stock for an 85+ Dodge truck, once Carter was done building TQs.

 

[Nazfrank]

Evening Don,

That's just it, I checked and the 85 and up Dodge quadrajets all have electric choke covers yet this intake is a factory intake and uses a heat tube setup for the choke cover. Canadian maybe? Australian??

 

[charlie1935]

You left out Mexican. :gr_patrio

 

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

interesting car you found after thinking about it. I could be wrong on this but the carb you described if it is indeed a Rochester is most likely a M4MC series, which puts it in a circa 75-80 GM 350. in any case there are many different carbs you can go with but if you do pick a Qjet, grab one with an electric choke. If you take that one and convert it to electric make sure you block off that tiny hole going from the choke to the carb body or you will have a bad vacuum leak.

 

[fins2fuselage]

Evening Jeff,

Thanks for the quality answer, I would have answered sooner but I was busy hunting down some 1200 grit sandpaper to hone my nice working accelerator pump bore with.

You make a several good points, points that only experience can provide. We can eliminate sloshing fuel in the float bowl as just by coincidence (and from building Solex stuff for my VW's) I actually fitted the top cover without the gasket in place and eye-balled it for fit. As I have yet to drive the truck. The condition is just static, ... sitting. The puff of black smoke is not excessive but it's there and bothers me and yes, I am use to EFI stuff.

I'll give the ignition system a detailed inspection in the morning and report back. One thing I did notice is that when putting plug wires on it several years ago that the firing order on the cap is bumped up almost one hole advanced. I made a mental note to check the timing chain back then but .. but .. but, just plain forgot and then I parked the truck for a vacation. I'l check it for slop in the morning but as is, the truck ran strong and i'm sure it will still when I drive it in the morning.

On the Volare, I can't get that off my mind as it is absolutely a stock set-up and the manifold heated choke ( hot air is drawn into the choke housing via a small vacuum orifice in the carburetor body.. sucking air through the tube going to the manifold) (DiverDwnPowrRam will know about that) .. but that cover says older quadrajet. Is it possible that someone put a later police 360 in the car .. but that would have been an electric choke cover .. yes? This manifold is set up for the heat tube choke carb.

Frank,

Could your distributor be installed a tooth or two off? As I recall, all Mopar small-blocks use a gear drive (rather than a blade) on the distributor shaft. I have seen distributors installed willy-nilly in other brands of vehicles, then the plug wires were arranged in the cap to "agree" with the "new" distributor relationship. Predictably, they ran like cr*p.

Or perhaps the carburetor is loading-up. Holleys are far from leak-free carburetors (even when rebuilt) and it may be leaking internally. With a flashlight, peek down the throat as the truck idles and see whether you can spot gasoline accumulating anywhere in there. This sometimes happens, and then when you dump the throttle -- guess what -- you get a puff of black smoke! I changed my big-block's Holley over to a 2-bbl Carter BBD 1 1/2" from a '68 383 and I have had no problems. I don't know whether a big-block Carter 2-bbl would work on your 360, however. I can post comparison pix of the Holley I removed and the Carter I installed on my 400 if you think it might help.

As for the Volare, perhaps it is a California car; there's no telling what EPA might have forced Chrysler to do out there in the '70s.

Jeff

 

[volaredon]

Evening Don,

That's just it, I checked and the 85 and up Dodge quadrajets all have electric choke covers yet this intake is a factory intake and uses a heat tube setup for the choke cover. Canadian maybe? Australian??

Like I said; probably not factory for a Volare. I'd bet the intake/carb and possibly the whole motor was sourced from an 85+ truck. (Volare's are not "new" anymore; it is hard to say what someone would have done to it over the years) but yes, they did have the black dial choke like a carb that would be OEM on a GM car, and the Cars (mostly cop cars) had the "electronic" carb but unless it was originally built-for- California a truck will not have an electronic version. My old 89 Dip ex-squad, had teh electronic carb with the black dial. Ive seen several Dodge pickups that had the black dial without the electronic crap. Just being electric choke DOES NOT make it an "electronic" carb.

I just yesterday sold a good Q-J core whos numbers say it was an original '80 Chevy truck carb. It is entirely posible along the way that someone that knows a bit about carbs took either (1) a baseplate from an 85+ mopar carb and put it on an older made for GM carb, or(2) just swapped the throttle shaft from a made-for-Mopar Q-J

I have also seen people replace a TQ with a QJ and adapt the linkage to fit and work with a GM carb, and someone that did not "know better" would not know the difference.

 

[Nazfrank]

I went and looked at the car again. It's an absolutely original 1979 Dodge Aspen. The emission label under the hood says California emissions, 360 4 barrel and 1979. The build option tag on the inner drivers fender well reads like a wish list. There are two metal tags held on by a common centered screw. I don't know what all the option codes are but E58 is one of them ... so, this is an original E58 car without a doubt in my mind.

The carburetor is a GM rochester quadrajet and the hot air pickup for the choke element is fed though a factory bent and formed tube that goes down to the right (passenger side) exhaust manifold where there is what appears to be a stainless steel cover on the rear center section held on by a stainless hose clamp. The hose clamp sits right where the the top rib missing .. ever wonder why that top rib on the exhaust manifold is cut down?? FOR THIS HOSE CLAMP !!! Absolutely factory original. Even the air filter housing has the same large snorkel (single) as pictures of the Red Express AF housing I've looked at. Opens up at the end to take a large diameter induction hose. I'm telling you guys .. I'm not a collector, or a car nut but I know a make shift add-on when I see it and this is not .. she's factory and I'd bet on it. Someone needs to do some research in a factory '79 Aspen parts book and then we'll know for sure .. But I'm telling ya' .. she's factory ...

 

[fins2fuselage]

I went and looked at the car again. It's an absolutely original 1979 Dodge Aspen. The emission label under the hood says California emissions, 360 4 barrel and 1979. The build option tag on the inner drivers fender well reads like a wish list. There are two metal tags held on by a common centered screw. I don't know what all the option codes are but E58 is one of them ... so, this is an original E58 car without a doubt in my mind.

The carburetor is a GM rochester quadrajet and the hot air pickup for the choke element is fed though a factory bent and formed tube that goes down to the right (passenger side) exhaust manifold where there is what appears to be a stainless steel cover on the rear center section held on by a stainless hose clamp. The hose clamp sits right where the the top rib missing .. ever wonder why that top rib on the exhaust manifold is cut down?? FOR THIS HOSE CLAMP !!! Absolutely factory original. Even the air filter housing has the same large snorkel (single) as pictures of the Red Express AF housing I've looked at. Opens up at the end to take a large diameter induction hose. I'm telling you guys .. I'm not a collector, or a car nut but I know a make shift add-on when I see it and this is not .. she's factory and I'd bet on it. Someone needs to do some research in a factory '79 Aspen parts book and then we'll know for sure .. But I'm telling ya' .. she's factory ...

Frank,

I say "Buy the whole car and drag it home!" Then you can decide what to do with it at your leisure. BTW, have you looked underneath the back end of that Volare yet? I once had a '79 Chrysler Cordoba 300 with the E58 engine package -- it had a 9 1/4" Chrysler rear end . . .

If you end up with the Q-Jet and decide to put it into service, be sure to let me know and I will give you some pointers to help you avoid disappointment. The carburetors themselves are simple, but their problems unfortunately are not . . .

Jeff

 

[stosh562]

i could be wrong, but i thought back in the 80's, when i started wrenching on my own stuff as well as friends, that the parts stores could look up rochester listings for just about any application. i know when i worked at Super Shops, they had Holley listings for just about any application. and i don't mean the universal fit numbers. these were year and model specific. such as a replacement for a variable venturi 4bbl on a late 70's ford. i might have also been getting a contact high off the hand cleaner:dunno: