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408 storker build

59K views 136 replies 11 participants last post by  mullinax05 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello fellow mopar maniacs!

Thought I would share my new engine build. The 5.9 I have has 84k on it and using oil. Why those low miles and oil consumption has got me. Must be the valve seals or cracked heads... I don't know.

I replaced the keg intake with a Hughes FI intake and it dropped the oil consumption down some but not a whole lot. Talked to a engine builder and I told him the engine uses about 3/4 qt every 1000 miles. He said "Is that all". Like this is supposed to be normal. Fords use a quart every 900 miles is what he told me. lol

Anyways I embarked on a journey for more HP/TQ and hopefully no more oil consumption.

Talked to Brian at IMM engines and he sold me a set of Engine Quest heads. He said they work better on the Magnums rather than the Indys. Hot Rod did a engine build with IMM and they used the EQ heads so it must be the ticket.

Parts list:

Engine Quest heads 2.02/1.60
PAC Beehive Springs
Ferra valves
Hughes FI intake
Fastman 52mm throttle body
SCT tuned
Flowtech headers
Stainless Steel Pro roller rockers
Hardend push rods
HV oil pump
SCAT Forged Crankshaft
SCAT 2-ICR6123-2124-7/16
Icon Forged Pistons #IC984 .030
Ring Set Total Seal #9024030NF
Rod Bearings #4101HN Clevite "H" series
Main Bearings #4017 Clevite "H” Seriess

The jury is still out on the roller cam. Got to crunch some numbers.

Any advise to avoid heartaches and troubles I would appreciate it.
 
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#2 ·
Hmmmmmm. Sounds like a crappy engine your building there!!! When you are done with it, you can feel free to install it in my truck!!!! Have you checked with some of the cam manufactures, to see what they recommend? I would thing Hughes would have a good idea.
 
#4 ·
If I had your money I would build you one, have shipped to you and build me one too...:D

I got kind of got ahead of the game (imagine that) and purchased a cam from Hughes (as well as other parts) for this build but after talking with Brian at IMM ... I think the engine will get a custom cam. Hughes cam is going back.

Brian mentioned:

"I recommend our kit with the 4032 pistons, and only 9.4:1 compression for towing and heavy vehicles...cam I would spec would be 220@.050 on a 112lca and would have about .550 lift.
This combo will make 485lb.ft. of TQ, and roughly 425HP."

I won't do any towing but I do know my truck is heavy...4500lbs

I have always been a 110 LSA guy with other cars/engines I've had. The 112 LSA would be a new road for me. I assume however this is a computer controlled vehicle and with the 112 I don't have to worry about my power brakes not working properly.

Did you buy the pistons yet? If i recall icon is made by Keith Black. I was interested in a set of them(used) a guy had on craigs list. He replied and said one of them had a crack. After doing some research i found out they have a history of cracking. Not sure if the ones you have are the same but i looked up the # you posted and it looked the same. The crack starts at the valve cut out on the side of the piston. Are these sold as the 408 kit with the crank? If it where me i would look for different pistons.
I really appreciate the heads up!!!

I've noticed that Icon pistons... most of them anyways is made of 2618 forged aluminum. Brian mentioned 4032 pistons (see above). This led to researching on the net and found the 4032 pistons seems to be more street friendly.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-081008-mahle-piston-alloy-comparison/

You might have saved me some troubles.
 
#3 ·
Did you buy the pistons yet? If i recall icon is made by Keith Black. I was interested in a set of them(used) a guy had on craigs list. He replied and said one of them had a crack. After doing some research i found out they have a history of cracking. Not sure if the ones you have are the same but i looked up the # you posted and it looked the same. The crack starts at the valve cut out on the side of the piston. Are these sold as the 408 kit with the crank? If it where me i would look for different pistons.
 
#5 ·
#6 ·
That is nice. IMM says a Scat cast crank is good up to 650HP.... I'm not going to be making that kind of HP... it should be around 450HP from what I've been told. Is there a good reason I should go forged?

What's the part number on that chain tensioner spun?
 
#8 ·
I understand that. When I said "Is there a good reason I should go forged?" was after I mentioned that the engine was going to be making 450HP and not 650Hp... so is there any good reason I should go forged since I'm not going to be making 650HP?.... is what I meant to say.

I guess I worded it wrong...lol
 
#10 ·
the chain tensioner is standard on only 6cylinders. Y? I don't know cause both a 6 and 8cylinder can benefit from a accurate timing chain.
anybody who can assembly an engine responsibly could also do so with a forged crank as well.
I know for certain eagle cast cranks tend to fail more often then others. commonly on the timing chain snout.
if an eagle cast crank is the lowest quality available, I would put scat a step above them and K1 at the top of the list.
your from south Carolina? a few reputable builders are located on the east coast, just hard to find, if you don't mind out sourcing.
http://www.southeastrt.net/index.ph...onials_id=43&zenid=98uspfcv955701c72fj8gh8km3
https://www.performanceinjectionequipment.com/

if I may add. I too run EQ heads from Odessa cylinder head in florida. LOVE um! let me suggest the "monster" version. out the door they are ready for big cam action! and if your going to compression values over the 9s or mid 9s +, 10/1 use edlebrock aluminum heads and ARP studs.
 
#12 ·
I talked to Brian few moments ago and going with a Scat forged crank. Hopefully I won't have to worry about crank failure now.
Brian wants the engine compression to be 9.4 and no more.

I know exactly who perfomanceinjectionequipment is.... I'm not going to go in detail but I wouldn't let him build my lawnmower engine. All I'm going to say about that.


I talked to Richard (by your recommendation) and was very impressed with his knowledge. I was going to run one of his cams but one thing led to another so here is where I'm at today.
 
#11 · (Edited)
#13 ·
I'm going to need injectors.... Chrysler Hemi 6.1 or Ford Racing 30s.

I believe the 6.1 Hemi are 34lb. Been browsing some Hemi forums and the group all said they're 34lb. I don't anything about the Ford Racing ones.

Off of FlyRyan's info page

"On a 318/360, the stock injectors are fine till approximately 335 whp naturally aspirated. That will cover most heads/cam setups.
Hot 365s: Need to go to a Ford Racing 24# or 30# injector.
408s: Ford Racing 30s or Chrysler 6.1 Hemi injectors"

I've looked all over and find all kinds of different part numbers and pricing. Can't seem to find pound rate with the part numbers. Don't want to buy the wrong ones.

Hughes has some 32lb Accels but I don't know about the quality.

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...SW5qZWN0b3JzICYgQWNjZXNzb3JpZXM=&partid=28409
 
#14 · (Edited)
[URL=http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=24]#24 s[/URL]/ maybe #28s are big enough for your build. fool around on the injector calculator to test theories.
http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/InjectorSizeCalc.html
I like to repurpose factory issued injectors for other cars and not just go to a aftermarket run of performance injectors. reason being- aftermarket stuff comes and goes! they may just fall off the map and you will not be able to find replacements.
I run a corvette 350ci small block, bosch III #24 injector in mine.
buy them tested and balanced as a group.
try
https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/fuel-injectors/
 
#15 ·
ford racing injectors are blue body bosch IIIs I think. they are good ones too!
my connectors are ev1 iirc your injectors need to be ev6 for the wiring harness I believe. don't want added fail points and adapters engineered into a new engine if you ask me.
 
#16 · (Edited)
#28s / #30s should do it!
bout 400hp?
 
#20 · (Edited)
408 parts list so far:

Engine Quest heads 2.02/1.60
PAC Beehive Springs
Ferra valves
Stainless Steel Pro roller rockers
Hughes FI intake
F&B 58mm throttle body
Ford racing 39 injectors
SCT tuner
Flowtech headers
HV oil pump (with washer mod)
Comp custom ground cam .220/.220@ .50 550/550 lift 112LSA(subject to change)
Scat forged crank
Scat 4030 forged pistons
Scat 6.123 forged rods
 
#21 ·
Contacted Edge converter the other day. Gave them all the info of the truck and engine. I never said I was going to use the OEM converter...lol but I guess he wanted to point it out.

Andre at Edge converters says "The stroked small block would make short work of the OE converter. The main issue would be ballooning or cover flex.
You make great torque down low, so a stall setting of 2400-2600 will give you great 60' times when launched wide open.
I recommend the "Street Edge" series because of the billet cover, and anti balloon plates that we use. Keeping the clearance tight for great manners on the street, and a very efficient top end coupling.

Please let me know if you have other questions, or contact me direct at the desk line below."

Thinking about contacting PTC, or Dynamic.... any suggestions?
 
#22 ·
according to the injector calculator my build should utilize #26s .
hemifever told me its possible to tune stocker #22s beyond 325hp, even tune stockers for a stroked motor.
my 350 horse if fed by 24s and hemi tells me they are choked way back!
you may want to reconsider the injector choice.
 
#24 ·
I know when using the injector calculator inputing the expected HP that IMM Engines quoted me I get a injector size of 33lbs. The 39s are 6lbs bigger than what I need. I sent FlynRyan a email maybe he could explain why so big but he hasn't got back to me yet. Just thinking out loud but he would have to choke them down. I was going to go with the 6.1 Hemi injectors which are 34lb but found that they are shorter than what is needed and could cause fitment issues with the fuel rails. Maybe I will get to the bottom of this soon.



tailed my block with a 2400 stall out of patc. and I have occasional heat build up during city driving and a horrible heat issue during slow crawls or hill climbs. but to remedy these issues I installed a 3rd gen power wagon trans cooler.
the PATC converter is not bad for what it is. monster transmissions is also another reliable builder with a good reputation.
My trans cooling system has a fairly large cooler up in front of the radiator. I'm hoping the cooler will be large enough to not over heat with the stall converter. Right now with everything stock the trans temp gauge always stays between 125º and 150º. When it's at 150º that's when I'm in stop and go traffic. I've never seen it over 150º. I removed the check valve between the trans cooler and transmission... this seemed to drop the temp down a little bit. Thanks for the recommendations... I will need to contact PATC... they seem to on top of their game.
 
#23 ·
tailed my block with a 2400 stall out of patc. and I have occasional heat build up during city driving and a horrible heat issue during slow crawls or hill climbs. but to remedy these issues I installed a 3rd gen power wagon trans cooler.
the PATC converter is not bad for what it is. monster transmissions is also another reliable builder with a good reputation.
 
#26 ·
I don't doubt ryans ability.
its just the wild range of answers that manifest when you ask a very highly technical question from the "general public"!
be careful about taking answers solely based on opinion and not experience!
#39lb injectors are for 500hp projections.
have you learned to use the injector calculator?
 
#27 · (Edited)
Yeah that's why I created a poll ... to ask what injectors are YOU using on YOUR 408 engines... not what injectors I should be using....also to eliminate Ryans opinion on using the 39s and maybe if they are honest I can go by their own experience.

The poll is still getting votes coming in: 25-30 zero votes, 31-35 4 votes 35-40 1 vote, 41 over 6 votes

Heck.. it seems like the 41 and over is winning! That seems large to me but it's got the most votes.

I'll run the 39s and if I have issues I will have to take it on the chin and downsize.

Yes I have used the calculator you posted above and other injector calculators. I will need 33lb injectors. One calculator showed I need 33.4lbs another showed 33.2 using the same inputs the calculators advise using. Probably 34lb would be perfect.

I'm guessing all and all the calculators aren't taking in the consideration that a tuner can choke down the injector flow.

I find it extremely interesting that folks are using 41 injectors... either they are being dishonest or their engines are built for more than 525 HP, or the tuner is really choking down the injectors if it possible to choke them down that much.

I'm considering a Walbro 255 fuel pump but not sure if I will need it. I would like to have fuel pressure gauge but not sure where to install it on modern vehicle. Also planning on installing a wideband in order on keeping track on air fuel ratios.

This is all new to me... nothing is like fooling around with a carburetor like on my Barracuda.
 
#28 ·
in order to utilize a walbro 255 pump the entire fuel system needs a reboot.
from what I understand, the 1/4 line begins to struggle feeding around 450/500hp.
the an6 fuel rails I have hold more fuel in reserve. the cross lines are just over 5/16ths. if I was to upgrade the fueling system, I have heard of a r & r system which boots you up to AN8s 1/2" line. hipotek can get it. its a thousand dollars.
otherwise if the engine isn't starving, I wouldn't change from the oe pump.

oh! about fuel injectors again. ALL injectors are sold @2 bar fuel or 3bar fuel standards. typically 3bar which is 43.5 pounds of fuel. so a 39lb injector will act like a 42 with 49lbs of fuel behind it!
my #24s @3bar act like #26s with 49lbs fuel behind it. that doesn't help simplify things, but just to help you understand the basics. if ryan says he can dance the pcm, I would have a tendency to believe him. I HOPE!
 
#29 ·
Thinking I will run the engine with the OEM fuel pump and see how it goes. Guessing if it drops off at WOT then I will have to upgrade the fuel pump then the lines.

I understand what you're saying. The Ford Racing injectors are rated like:

* All injector flow rates are quoted at a delta pressure of 39.15 psi
* To convert to a delta pressure of 43.5 psi, multiply flow rate by 1.054

So that would put me at 41.106... so yeah 42lb

On the Facebook poll I created these guys are talking amongst themselves about 60lb and 80lb injectors like its a walk in the park. One guy has a .30 over 5.9 running 30lb injectors and states he's had no problems. Ryan states to the 408 guys not to use the 80s because "they are terrible at low pulse widths."

I don't know... I'm just as blown back about these large injectors as you... lol
 
#31 ·
that should breathe pretty well!
 
#32 ·
Going to check and make sure the Hughes FI intake doesn't need opened up around the top where the throttle body sits.

Might not have any issues but I wasn't expecting such large openings.

We was talking about injectors the other day... I got to thinking about the Holley Sniper EFI system.

That thing has four 100lb injectors with fuel pressure set at 58.5 psi!

The Holley throttle body might be situated differently rather than having one injector per cylinder like our engines do but that's 50lb injector per cylinder if 400 is divided by 8.

Also 58.5 psi is a good bit more than 43.5 psi. I don't know how to do the math but with additional fuel pressure I wonder what the injectors would act like?

There must be no issues in running a large injectors than what is needed.... as long as it can be dialed back by the ECU or tuner.
 
#34 ·
I talked to him about it again and told him to install bronze valve guides... that I was paranoid about valve guide failure. So it is a done deal.

Although he had told me earlier that they are just a waste of time since he hones the guide to fit the valve perfectly. That other engine builders don't know how or just don't have the time to hone the valve guides.

I mean going by what he has told me ... he is VERY confident in his head work not using bronze valve guides.

It would be nice if someone using his head without bronze guides pop up and tell us how their heads have been holding up. Brian has told me there are 300 sets of heads out there somewhere with no bronze guides being used. Hmmmmm...

I appreciate your well wishes however.
 
#36 ·
The whole point in bronze valve guides is that it is cheaper(and easier) to replace the guide rather than have the head machined due to worn guides. With a cast iron heads it's really not a issue but with aluminum it is a must. And a follow up on the KB pistons, I came across a catalog of all their pistons and it has a "note" in it about the rings. They need to be gapped(a certain amount) or piston failure will result. I will post the info as i don't have it in front of me.
 
#37 ·
The whole point in bronze valve guides is that it is cheaper(and easier) to replace the guide rather than have the head machined due to worn guides. With a cast iron heads it's really not a issue but with aluminum it is a must.
I wish you could tell that to the FlynRyan Facebook crowd. I mentioned IMM and they "attacked" me about IMM not using bronze in cast iron heads. One guy says he had two guides (non bronze) go bad on his Engine Quest heads. I asked did IMM do his heads and he said "NO".:nono

It all depends on who does the heads I believe. The majority have either heard of or had problems with their guides because some shade tree did their heads.

I feel very confident that IMM knows what they're doing and I would never have problems. However I went with bronze because my thinking is I am eliminating the possible problem altogether.
 
#38 ·
42lbs/3bar injectors. there it is! at least bosch type are good ones. you got room to grow. but hypereutectic pistons cant handle forced induction. you sure?
 
#40 ·
It all depends on who does the heads I believe.
You can argue the facts on both. Without bronze guides you have similar hardness metals rubbing against one another. With bronze guides they will wear out faster. Back before they took the lead (tetraethyl) out of the gas it acted as a lubricant. So they and the valve seats where lubricated by just the gas. Today's crap gas offers no such lubrication. As for the Facebook crowd what do they know about engines? That site is for talking s**t about one another. :ugh
 
#41 ·
building an engine with the rotary assembly fully forged, and then using composite hypereutectic pistons. everything you put together could handle 10lbs of boost BUT the pistons..
just something to think about.
I used cast pistons in mine, wish I went forged. i'm just not sold on composite pistons. although it is amazing how hard and stable they are, I wonder how brittle ?
 
#43 ·
it must have been a different thread. thought I seen a pict of keith black pistons on the table for this build.
sorry.
 
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