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post #1 of 19 Old 03-11-2019, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
RLynnDay
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Unhappy P0340 p1391

P0340 P1391
Ok guys, I need some help. I'm an experienced amateur, being the daughter of a mechanic and having worked on my own and friends/family's vehicles for almost 30 years - but this darn Dodge has me befuddled.

Awhile back I had some problems with a crank/no start which ended up being the camshaft position sensor aka distributor pickup coil on my 01' Ram 1500, 6cyl, 3.9L engine.
At the time, I'd been through every possible repair, replaced both cam and crank sensors, all plugs, wires, cap & rotor, and finally resolved the problem.
Here it is about 18 months later, and I started having some surging and jerking, stalling and misfiring, mainly after the engine warmed up. I had p1391 code, so I could often let the truck cool down, clear the codes,
and drive to wherever I needed to go around town. (I'm in a small town, so leaving town to go elsewhere means 15 minute 18-20 mile highway trip I don't risk)

Ultimately this time around, I replaced the cam sensor, and drove it fine for half a day, including out of town, and it seemed better than it had ever been. Later that night I tried to go down the block and it started
it's surging and jerking and stalling and super long crank times again, but I got it back home. Then I replaced the crank sensor. Small temp improvements, but back to the same, and had to be towed home.
(I should specify that I've used O'Reilly parts, with lifetime warranties - so I didn't have to pay to replace them this time around - they were already under warranty, and O'Reilly is all we have here in town, so that's why I use their parts I know, not the best choice but...)

So I have a cheapy Innova code reader and a digital multimeter for diagnostics - so I got the dmm out and checked, and the output voltage from the sensor with the engine running varies between 1.75 and 3.45, never gets near the 5V....BUT I backprobed the harness connector and found what do you know, but I have no continuity between the ground wire and supply 5v wire. With what little I know about electronics and voltages, etc. it seems like the signal from the PCM to the sensor isn't coming in as the full 5V reference it should, so that would affect the output range? Am I right? Or does the sensor not care much about the input reference voltage signal?
Where do I go from here? Can the plastic connector (and inside) being dirty cause this? Would it be worthwhile to try cleaning it? Can I just replace the plastic connector, or is there more testing of the rest of the wiring between it and the PCM that must be done? The wiring *appears* in decent shape, with no obvious splits or breaks in wiring, melted insulations, etc.


*Also, at a later date, I have a code for a Governor's Pressure Sensor that I need to take care of, but right now my concern is getting the truck running and driving.
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post #2 of 19 Old 03-12-2019, 08:49 PM
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P0340 No Cam Reference Signal at PCM
P1391 Intermittent Loss of CMP or CKP

I know you said you get O'Reillys parts but how many times do you want to keep replacing them? Rock auto will deliver, Get either oem mopar or Delphi brand and stay away from BWD! The 5 volts is what is supplied to the sensors along with a ground and the return signal back to the PCM. Depending on what you are testing you will get different voltages back to the PCM but never as high as 5 volts. After you change any sensor reset the PCM by disconnection one of the battery terminals then turn the headlights on. This will clear any old codes and then the pcm can relearn the sensors. jerking and misfires can also be caused by a bad plenum gasket(very common problem). This is the fix...
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/p...p?partid=27091
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post #3 of 19 Old 03-12-2019, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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P0340 No Cam Reference Signal at PCM
P1391 Intermittent Loss of CMP or CKP

I know you said you get O'Reillys parts but how many times do you want to keep replacing them? Rock auto will deliver, Get either oem mopar or Delphi brand and stay away from BWD!
Yes, I know I only went with O'Reilly this time because what I had was under warranty. I have heard that these trucks "don't like" aftermarket parts, and I have bought from RockAuto before, but the only brands they have for the cam sensor are Standard Motor Products and Wells/Airtex - both significantly cheaper in price than the BWD, so I presumed lower quality as well. I looked online for a Mopar part and found it's been discontinued. I had heard when I replaced these sensors last time that they would likely last about a year (and was surprised to learn they actually had a lifetime warranty), so it was not a huge surprise having to replace again -- what is surprising is that replacing them seemed to help only temporarily if at all.

Can the CMP go so bad in a day?? - because it ran like a charm the day after replacing it, for about 18 hours...

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The 5 volts is what is supplied to the sensors along with a ground and the return signal back to the PCM. Depending on what you are testing you will get different voltages back to the PCM but never as high as 5 volts. After you change any sensor reset the PCM by disconnection one of the battery terminals then turn the headlights on. This will clear any old codes and then the pcm can relearn the sensors.
Does this process clear codes better than the "Erase Codes" function on the Code reader? I should also note that after my checks the other day, the truck ran fine idling for quite a long time, until the engine was good and warm, and then I shut it all off. I came back out not 15 minutes later to test drive around the block, and it started the symptoms all over again, and I barely made it home.

And then using the code reader, I found that the p0340 had NOT been set this time, just the p0748 - which I know that I need a transmission fluid and filter change, but wanted to get the ignition issues fixed first. Any idea why it wouldn't register the 340 again? Perhaps it didn't act up long enough? Or would that be related just to the wires going back to PCM?

Is there a way I can test the PCM and make sure IT isn't the problem rather than CMP/CNK sensors?

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jerking and misfires can also be caused by a bad plenum gasket(very common problem).
Thank you for that!! I'm not quite bold or experienced enough to try taking the engine all apart myself, besides not having a garage or work area in which to do it, but it's definitely something to look into! Are there specific symptoms to this plenum gasket issue that would distinguish it from anything else? My biggest problem is just getting tired of throwing parts at it to see what sticks and going broke in the process LOL.
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post #4 of 19 Old 03-25-2019, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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Ok I've checked all the ground straps and nearby wiring, and found nothing. Have replaced cam sensor (distributor pickup coil) now 3 times and crank sensor. Truck runs fine when cold, but after fully warmed up, it surges and jerks and stalls, making odd noises like a misfire (or maybe timing chain sounds) and triggering CEL and p340 and p1391 codes. I've been told that I may need someone w a certain scan tool to do a distributor sync, but when I had issues with these 18 months ago and replaced both sensors then, I never had to do that. I just put the new parts on (then) and problem went away.
Parts are from O'Reilly, which I've been told and told and told that these trucks "dont like" aftermarket parts, but Mopar has discontinued this cam sensor and it isn't available. (What does that tell ya?!)
Besides three parts in a row can't all be defective, can they? But I just can't seem to figure out why it **only** acts up when its warm? Would timing chain only act up when warm? And would it trigger the 340 code?
Would the distributor itself cause these issues? I've seen whole Mopar assemblies for sale, so I'm tempted to try it, but don't want to risk having to mess with the engine itself because something turned during removal or install. I'm just not confident enough to deal with an engine disassembly...
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post #5 of 19 Old 03-25-2019, 05:25 PM
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Sometimes, the problem is so simple we tend to over look it. I'm aware you replaced the spark plug wires, but have you tried checkin' them again? How bouts the spark plugs, cap and/or rotor themselves? I've seen simpler things than this take out better mechanix than me before...afterwards, we all stood around, downing some suds and declaring with one unified voice...DUH!!! why the hell didn't I look there first?!?
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post #6 of 19 Old 03-25-2019, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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Sometimes, the problem is so simple we tend to over look it. I'm aware you replaced the spark plug wires, but have you tried checkin' them again? How bouts the spark plugs, cap and/or rotor themselves? I've seen simpler things than this take out better mechanix than me before...afterwards, we all stood around, downing some suds and declaring with one unified voice...DUH!!! why the hell didn't I look there first?!?
rotfl

Yeah, I have checked them, but would be glad to check those again. At this point, that is the easiest possible option to check, but would they trigger these codes? And would they cause a problem *only* when the truck is warmed up?
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post #7 of 19 Old 03-25-2019, 06:55 PM
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I had a BWD(junk) crank sensor act up after about 15-20 minuets of running(less than 6 months old). Heat can effect them. Delphi is technically not aftermarket because they are a suppler to the auto manufactures. Rockauto has both. Before you spend any more money on sensors i would say to find some one that has a scanner that reads live data. This way you can see in real time that there is an issue with a sensor.
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post #8 of 19 Old 03-25-2019, 08:26 PM
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Only when the pickup is warmed up would sound like the upstream O2 sensor. The O2 only comes to life after the engine goes into "closed loop" operations, or, when the engine's warm. Now, I know that doesn't explain the crank pos sensor, but neither does only acting up when warm being the fault of the CPS. That said, do you live in a region of the country where road salt is used extensively? I know this salt can reak havoc on electrical components and expecially connectors?
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post #9 of 19 Old 03-25-2019, 08:36 PM
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BTW, it's possible that you have 2 problems, not 1. The crank and cam sensors can and do absolutely cause such problems (aftermarket...yuk!!!). These 2nd gen Dodges like their OEMoparts lots better than aftermarket. If you can get a picoscope, spy on your crank and cam signals on your beast that'd be best. It could be the sensors are causing intermittent fits, but yeah, I agree, that the "only when warm" seems waay too uniform of a failure for flaky crank and/or ccam sensors; sounds more like O2 sensor...check both.
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post #10 of 19 Old 03-26-2019, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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Only when the pickup is warmed up would sound like the upstream O2 sensor. The O2 only comes to life after the engine goes into "closed loop" operations, or, when the engine's warm. Now, I know that doesn't explain the crank pos sensor, but neither does only acting up when warm being the fault of the CPS. That said, do you live in a region of the country where road salt is used extensively? I know this salt can reak havoc on electrical components and expecially connectors?
Would the O2 sensor not trigger a code of its own??

And as far as road salt goes, yes and no. I'm in rural Kansas, and while we don't use a lot of road salt normally, we've been overrun with ice storms recently, just before these issues began....interesting thoughts! How would I know that was the issue and how would I fix it? Seems like road salt would be more an issue for a lower sitting vehicle, rather than these trucks with connectors 4' off the ground, but ya never know what can set these things off SMH
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post #11 of 19 Old 03-26-2019, 07:59 AM
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I'm doin' allot of guessin' because this is long distance diagnoses with no hands on capability, so, ya gotta give that the lion share of the weight of what is said here. That said, I've seen O2 sensors that ran around under the ECM radar and were faulty. Denso seems to be the best aftermarket O2 sensors for these beasts. I lived in Syracuse NY for 5 years and NOTHING was safe from the attack of the salt monster, whether 2" or 2 feet off the ground. Check the connectors of the offending circuits for the green schmutz that is a sure sign that moisture is getting in between the electrical flow of current, due to the oxidization of the copper in the metal. Now, back to the idea of possible bad grounds (again, long distance guessing)...check for voltages between the battery, frame, engine and connector grounds, not between any positive and ground, but grounds ONLY. The salt monster loves to upset the triad of essential equal levels that constitute your vehicle electrical "grounds". They must all have 0 volts difference between them. If not...burning hail from the sky, plagues of locust, rivers running red, dogs and cats sleeping together...MASS HYSTERIA!!!
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post #12 of 19 Old 03-26-2019, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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LOL I'm digging your sense of humor, that's for sure.

Ok, so I went out and started her up and let her idle for a good 30 minutes. Well into 'normal operating temperature' and 'closed loop' mode. No problems at all. It ran and idled normally. I even moved it into gear and gave it some gas to see if it would start it's surging and such. Nothing. Perfectly even, smooth idle. Perfect RPMs. (Had the hood propped all the way up, blocking the windshield, which is why I didn't bother tryin to drive it anywhere....)

Then, I turned the ignition off. Felt the PCM during the idling and after. Barely warm, nothing out of the ordinary. Certainly not the overheating I would expect for a PCM failure. Wait about 3 minutes or so. Start the truck back up, still in 'closed loop mode' I'm sure because the engine is still quite warm. And VOILA - the symptoms begin almost immediately, CEL illuminated and codes triggered. (P0748 - tranny code, unrelated; p1391 - THE problem at hand; P442 and P455 - EVAP codes that have existed since before I bought the truck, that my previous repair guy said weren't any concern, and never caused any particular issues) If I would have tried to drive it anywhere at this point, I have no doubt that the P0340 would have shown up, too, because that's been the general order of events.

Which this 'investigation' kinda explains why I was able to drive it out of town after first replacing the cam sensor. It's a 25 minute drive, on highway, to where I went. Just long enough to get into closed loop mode, before shutting it off at my appointment. Then I was in there for an hour, long enough for it to cool back down, so no problems driving 25 minutes back home either....But then when I needed to go to the store 10 minutes after getting home (after shutting it off and starting it back up in closed loop), then and only then did the problems begin.

Both of my O2 sensors look a little gnarly, and are likely the factory sensors in bad need of replacement I know but I hate to spend another hundred bucks on something that may not fix the issue at hand. I've got some Amazon credit, so I've been looking at these bluetooth ELM 327 OBD-II scanners with freeze frame and real time data monitoring to link to a monitoring app, thinking they could show me the voltage from various sensors, including the O2, as well as intake air temps, coolant temp, etc. The cheapy code reader I have now is just that - a code reader. I can see the codes that are set and reset them, that's it. So I'm hoping one of these can give me a bit more insight. I've heard some say that they're all about the same, and spending over $20 is a waste, and others say that only the $75+ models are worth anything, though the reviews are pretty similar for all of them.

What do you know or think about these? Any recommendations? I thought/hoped that O'Reilly lent out their scan tools, but they told me no, and said they'd only read the codes anyway. Where's that one neighbor with a picoscope when you need one??? HA HA HA
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post #13 of 19 Old 03-26-2019, 07:04 PM
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P0455 Evap Leak Monitor Large Leak Detected

You may want to check out the evap system, Leaks are fairly easy to find. If not you can pull the vac line off the tb for testing purposes. This is link for a reader that had a lot of good revues on the forums some time ago. Really don't know how true they where but it does say it let's you read data. ???

https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products...iglink21627-20
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post #14 of 19 Old 03-26-2019, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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P0455 Evap Leak Monitor Large Leak Detected

You may want to check out the evap system, Leaks are fairly easy to find. If not you can pull the vac line off the tb for testing purposes. This is link for a reader that had a lot of good revues on the forums some time ago. Really don't know how true they where but it does say it let's you read data. ???

https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products...iglink21627-20
THANKS Moparite! That was one of the ones I was looking at and had added to a list of possibles, so you just veered me in that direction. I'll let y'all know!
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post #15 of 19 Old 03-26-2019, 09:41 PM
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I would also check to see if the evap solenoid is firing. These little jewels can cause all sorts'o funky problems if they fail open OR closed. If open and the gas tank can't breathe properly (which happens on these old beasts), a vacuum can build up above the gas causing reduced fuel pressure. If failed closed, the gas tank builds up pressure, which can force fuel into the carbon canister...blah, blah, blah. It could also explain why letting her cool down relieves the problem momentarily, only to come back once "warm". The problem will be more pronounced as the gas level drops. One way to check for this problem is to remove the gas cap and drive around and see what changes.
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post #16 of 19 Old 03-29-2019, 10:00 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, so I've done some investigations with my handy dandy little Bluetooth scanner that I bought on Amazon. It's a gem, but would be a lot better if I could find the Dodge specific PID's any.where.at.all.

The scanner does not check the cam or crank signals without specific custom PIDs, which I cannot find for the life of me...so I've just checked the o2 sensors, and surprisingly, they seem ok. They move evenly between about .3volts and .6 volts, going up just past .9 volts with a spray of carb cleaner in the hose. But on the scanner's tests, I did get a test failure for the upstream sensor, after it was warm and things were going to shyte - so I'll unplug the sensor and let it feed off factory defaults and see if that makes any difference...

In the meantime,

However, what I've discovered through just plain driving is this -- I can start the engine cold, and drive as long as I want (theoretically - today I drove 30+ minutes, 20+ miles), with no symptoms at all. BUT...once the engine is warmed up and has been turned off, starting the truck back up results in a P0340 code, erratic signals from the cam sensor, (which then means) erratic signals from the crank sensor, misfires and super rough idle with random stalling.

I had to keep my appointment today (a required doctor appt) out of town, and made it there with no issue, and then despite waiting 2+ hours, killing time at Wally World and an awesome thunderstorm cooling the truck down, the cam sensor must have still been warm/wonky, because as soon as I started it back up to go home, I got the p0340 code, misfires in cylinders 1, 3 and 5, ultra lean conditions where I thought it was going to stall out, and a few times I think it may have temporarily, because I felt my power brakes lose the 'power' as I drove (despite going 55+ mph down the rural highway) but I DID make it home, 20+ miles.

AND THEN...(wait, this story isn't over just yet LOL)...as I pulled up in front of my house, I hurried, expecting it to stall as I pulled up and went to shift into Park - but then it all evened out, no more misfires, no more rough idle. I had planned on taking it around the block to see what she did, but just then my cat jumped in the cab with me, rubbing muddy paws all over the groceries, so I decided just to go on in the house for the night LOL. Haven't been back out to mess with it since...

But, given this trip and information, I just keep coming back to the cam sensor/pickup coil...I watched a YouTube video from a guy named ScannerDanner with the same basic problems I'm having, except in his video, the truck in question would not start back up when warmed up....


Starting cold, it works fine. Proper signals to crank sensor, proper signals from crank to PCM, no crazy symptoms. Of course, once the engine is running, it doesn't need the cam sensor info much anymore - the crank sensor does it all, sending signals to PCM based on what the cam sensor said when starting. But once it's all warmed up, the cam sensor sends bizarre signals, if any, to the crank sensor, which then sends whatever it does back, and all hell breaks loose.

Again, I've been told not to use aftermarket parts, but this cam sensor/pickup coil from MOPAR has been straight up discontinued. Not a single soul around has one. Except junkyards, and I'm not sure I want a used one, given the failure rates...So then what brand if any can I trust??? I've been through 3 BWD sensors in 7 weeks, all with this set of symptoms.
I can get a MOPAR CRANK sensor, but it's a b1tc4 to get to, so I hate to go through that if it isn't proven to be the problem....
I love my truck and am not ready to give her up, but I just don't know what to do with her!
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post #17 of 19 Old 03-30-2019, 08:57 AM
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Like i said in my earlier post DELPHI! It's what i put in my vehicles.

Rockauto (DELPHI SS10127 {#56027870**)

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...on+sensor,7196

And the pcm uses the cam sensor while the engine is running. If it looses the crank signal then it comes back it needs to know where the engine is so it does that by reading the cam sensor. It also needs it for the fuel sync.
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post #18 of 19 Old 03-30-2019, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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Like i said in my earlier post DELPHI! It's what i put in my vehicles.

Rockauto (DELPHI SS10127 {#56027870**)

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...on+sensor,7196
I know there's a Delphi CRANK sensor -- I need a CAM sensor /pickup coil.....that's what I have not been able to find in any brands other than BWD, Standard, Airtex and Duralast....all cheap aftermarket. Do you know anything about a brand called "AM OEM"? I found one that says it has a 10 year warranty, which is highly odd on an electronic part. I suspect that means either they expect to replace them over and over because they're disposable, or they are actually solid, decent products. I would put a new sensor on every other day if I had to, but obviously I'd rather not. Would be nice to drive my truck for more than one trip per day.
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post #19 of 19 Old 04-11-2019, 12:38 AM Thread Starter
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SO...what it finally ended up being was - get this- a defective aftermarket crank sensor from O'reilly. Bought the MOPAR part on Amazon, installed it and POOF, problems gone. I will never again buy aftermarket sensors of any kind unless I absolutely have to.

I noticed as I was installing the new Mopar one, that the magnet on it kept trying to latch on to every single piece of metal in the engine compartment. The O'Reilly part would not even pick up a paperclip or small keyring. Barely had a magnet in it at all. If I'd noticed that installing it in the first place, I could have saved a lot of aggravation. Live and learn. Thanks to all for the help along the way!
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