Downshift Linkage: 77 power wagon 318 727 auto - DodgeTalk : Dodge Car Forums, Dodge Truck Forums and Ram Forums
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77orange
 
  Downshift Linkage: 77 power wagon 318 727 auto - Posted: 02-23-2012, 04:44 AM
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Post #1

I know there have been some post regarding the downshift linkage but most are pretty old, and I have some more specific question about it.

First of all, my original issue was that I had no power and no throttle response. It was also shifting way too early, and would rev at very high rpm around 45-55mph. There was also no downshift at any speed if I mashed the pedal.

When I adjusted the kickdown linkage, I set it so the back edge of the slot on the rod was resting against the throttle stud, with throttle closed and kickdown lever all the way forward. Then I added a return spring which it did not have before. After these adjustments, there was a huge difference in power and throttle response, especially from a stop. The transmission also seems to be progressing through its gears.

The remaining issues im having are that even though it is progressing through the gears, it still doesnt seem to be right. The shift from first to second is very soon with a large decrease in power. The shift into thrid is barely noticeable at times but im pretty sure it is shifting but it still revs very high but at higher speeds of about 50-65mph or so (im not 100% sure cause my spedo is broken). Then im still having the issue of not down shifting at all. If i am in 2nd and floor it pretty much nothing happens, if in 3rd very responsive cause of high rpms but no down shift.

My intial thought is that maybe the kickdown lever does not have the full range of motion from all the way forward to all the way back. Since I set it in the forward position, im guessing that it not being able to go all the way back is the issue. So my question is, am I right? If the lever is not going all the way back, will this prevent it form downshifting, and be the cause of shifting too early? I havent had time to check the range of motion on the lever yet but plan on doing that.

I was also reading about the kickdown band adjusting screw, which is located on the transmission near the kickdown lever. What does this do? I havent been able to find a decent explanation. The chilton manual gives specs for how many turns to adjust it based on year and model but deosnt give much explanation as to what it does/changes. Could this be an alternative or additional way of adjusting the downshifting?
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roadram360
 
 Posted: 02-23-2012, 06:39 PM
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Post #2

the governor at the rear controls the shift points. haven't visited that area in a while but the bolt adjusts the tightness of the lever. floored from a stop does she still shift 1-2 too soon? sitting at a truckstop in tx, so i'm not much help on this
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B-300
 
 Posted: 02-24-2012, 01:14 PM
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Post #3

Your on the right track, at wide open throttle (WOT), the kickdown lever should be all the way to the rear for downshifting.
At idle it will be near the front of it's range of motion.
The kickdown band is for the kickdown bad which is really the 2nd gear band. (comparable to passing gear in GM lingo). It adjusts the 2nd gear band which engages on the 1st-2nd shift and disengages on 2nd-3rd shift.
At WOT in 3rd, the 3rd-2nd downshift also engages this band, I think that's were the name came from and can be confusing unless you know this.
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77orange
 
 Posted: 02-26-2012, 03:54 AM
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Post #4

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadram360 View Post
the governor at the rear controls the shift points. haven't visited that area in a while but the bolt adjusts the tightness of the lever. floored from a stop does she still shift 1-2 too soon? sitting at a truckstop in tx, so i'm not much help on this
when floored from a stop, it does seem to shift a little too early from 1st to 2nd but it has decent throttle response until it shifts. Also, if I do not floor it, the shift from 1st to 2nd seems to be pretty much right. The main issues is after it shifts. There is no power/throttle response, and no downshift.
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77orange
 
 Posted: 02-26-2012, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by B-300 View Post
Your on the right track, at wide open throttle (WOT), the kickdown lever should be all the way to the rear for downshifting.
At idle it will be near the front of it's range of motion.
The kickdown band is for the kickdown bad which is really the 2nd gear band. (comparable to passing gear in GM lingo). It adjusts the 2nd gear band which engages on the 1st-2nd shift and disengages on 2nd-3rd shift.
At WOT in 3rd, the 3rd-2nd downshift also engages this band, I think that's were the name came from and can be confusing unless you know this.
Ok, I think im following what you are saying. So if the kickdown rod and linkage is set up and working properly, and Im still having the issues I explained in my original post, then this could be because the kickdown band needs to be adjusted?

From my original statement of the issues I am experiencing, would you say that I most likely need to adjust the kickdown band? I am also assuming that if the lever itself is not going all the way back at WOT, that the first issue to adress. Since it wont be able to downshift unless the lever goes all the way back??
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maachine
 
 Posted: 02-26-2012, 07:16 PM
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Post #6

i am a newbie to dodge trucks and this forum, so my knowledge of kick downs is very limited. my truck ran like crap, was slow, bad throttle response, and had issues down shifting. i did a complete over haul on the ignition system. truck runs great now. shifting feels much better and its down shifting when it needs to.

my point, maybe your problem lies somewhere else. cause i too thought about messing around with the kickdown rod. i'm glad i didnt.

also, high rpm's in third gear at around 50 mph could also mean you have high gearing in your rear axle.

one last thing, i have a 3 speed auto transmission (727), and it doesnt down shift to second often unless i'm cruising at around 40 or so. anything around 50 mph, it gets up and goes in 3rd without any downshifting involved
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77orange
 
 Posted: 02-27-2012, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by maachine View Post
i am a newbie to dodge trucks and this forum, so my knowledge of kick downs is very limited. my truck ran like crap, was slow, bad throttle response, and had issues down shifting. i did a complete over haul on the ignition system. truck runs great now. shifting feels much better and its down shifting when it needs to.

my point, maybe your problem lies somewhere else. cause i too thought about messing around with the kickdown rod. i'm glad i didnt.

also, high rpm's in third gear at around 50 mph could also mean you have high gearing in your rear axle.

one last thing, i have a 3 speed auto transmission (727), and it doesnt down shift to second often unless i'm cruising at around 40 or so. anything around 50 mph, it gets up and goes in 3rd without any downshifting involved
You make a good point but I am like 99% sure the issues have to do with the kickdown... for the most part. One reason being, that I just had most of the ignition system replaced. In addition, after making adjustments I notice a big difference, especially from just adding the return spring.

Today I redid the set up using the WOT technique and had huge improvements. The truck now holds first gear longer and has better throttle response, and doesnt bog down after shifting into 2nd. Also if the throttle is held down through 3rd it actually holds the gear longer, maximizing power. However, its only in that gear. In first and second it doesnt rev very high but doesnt really bog down anymore either. Im not sure if I am supposed to have a downshift when cruising at 40-50mph or not, but I still dont. I do notice a downshift at lower speeds but it is not very distinct.

The overall adjustment I made allowed the lever to move about 1/4inch further back, and yielded very noticeable results. Im not sure if it is still not going back all the way though. My brother helped me with the adjustment, and he said that without the rod connected to the throttle, the lever can go back about an inch or so further than it does now, after making the adjustment. The only thing though, is that it kinda seems like there is a lot of play in the lever. Is this what adjusting the band will improve?

My main question now is, with the improvements I just mentioned, and the remaining issue of no kickdown at cruising speeds, and not reving very high in 1st and 2nd, is it most likely do to nedding to make further adjustments so that the lever goes even further back?

One other thing I have noticed while making these adjustments is that there seems to be a lot of wasted momentum/motion because the kickdown rod's first movement, when pushed by the throttle, is up about 1/2inch or so, and then it moves back. I feel like this might be part of the issue because for the first initial distance the throttle travels, the kickdown lever isnt actually being moved much.
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roadram360
 
 Posted: 02-27-2012, 07:03 PM
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Post #8

i read somewhere the lever is supposed to be tight with throttle movement. that's how i have mine setup
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77orange
 
 Posted: 02-28-2012, 05:54 AM
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Post #9

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Originally Posted by roadram360 View Post
i read somewhere the lever is supposed to be tight with throttle movement. that's how i have mine setup
Contrary to everything I have read, I think you might be right. I adjusted my set up, once again, and moved the bolt I was using to shorten the length of the slot on the rod, pretty much all the way forward, pretty much eliminating any room there was for the throttle stud to move back and forth throught the slot. After doing this I now have great throttle response and full rpm range in all gears, and finally downshifting.

The only issue now is that its shifting kinda hard, especially when down shifting, which should be fixable by doing the band adjustment.

So I'm not really sure if seting it up this way is right or wrong but I know its working. I might see if I can get the rod to move a little farther forward to open up some space at the front of the slot, so that the throttle stud can slide a little.
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roadram360
 
 Posted: 02-28-2012, 10:40 PM
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Post #10

hard shifting torqueflites (loadflites in trucks) rule
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GOD BLESS AMERICA

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77orange
 
 Posted: 02-28-2012, 11:27 PM
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Post #11

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadram360 View Post
hard shifting torqueflites (loadflites in trucks) rule
So is it not necessarily a bad thing that it is shifting kinda hard?
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maachine
 
 Posted: 02-28-2012, 11:43 PM
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Post #12

mine shifts hard sometimes. and it was rebuilt 5 years ago. its full of fluid. i have read somewhere that ensuring drive shafts are greased and that installing grease zercs on your yokes helps with "the clunk" that happens. not sure if yours has "the clunk" or not, but mine does every so often.
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roadram360
 
 Posted: 02-29-2012, 12:10 AM
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Post #13

even with a zerk on the u-joints it may still clunk. just a quirk of mopars. nothing to worry about. i have a 46rh and it shifts as hard as a 727
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GOD BLESS AMERICA

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77orange
 
 Posted: 02-29-2012, 12:47 AM
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Post #14

Quote:
Originally Posted by maachine View Post
mine shifts hard sometimes. and it was rebuilt 5 years ago. its full of fluid. i have read somewhere that ensuring drive shafts are greased and that installing grease zercs on your yokes helps with "the clunk" that happens. not sure if yours has "the clunk" or not, but mine does every so often.
Mine doesn't have a clunk just shifting hard. The only other thing I'm kinda concerned about is that I'm worried it might be reving too high at WOT. The first time I drove it after making the last adjustment I was worried for a second that it wasn't going to shift and I but it did. Is it normal for these to rev pretty high at WOT?
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maachine
 
 Posted: 02-29-2012, 02:29 AM
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well you need to consider that it's a 3 speed transmission. it'll rev high in any gear if you floor it hard enough. do you have a tach? do you know your axle gearing? what size engine do you have? i have read a few magazine articles about building a 400 HP 318 engine. they always kept the stock crank shaft (one of the few things they did right with the 318). revving it up to 6000 rpms isnt a big deal for the stock crank. if i recall correctly, they cut themselves off at 6500 rpms with the stock crank shaft @415HP. the other article i read was 6300 rpms @400 HP. both used the stock crank. and they both said they felt they couldve taken up even higher in the rpm range. just saying that 318's were built to spill. they have more potential than people think
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1987 Dodge W-150 "The Beast"
some sort of lift
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LA 360 bored .030 over, EQ Magnum heads, Hooker Headers, true dual exhaust, Holley 4160 w/Truck Avenger parts, Edelbrock Performer dual plane intake, StreetFire ignition box & MSD coil
208 t-case/727A trans w/3.23 gears

Last edited by maachine : 02-29-2012 at 02:44 AM.
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77orange
 
 Posted: 02-29-2012, 03:07 AM
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Post #16

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Originally Posted by maachine View Post
well you need to consider that it's a 3 speed transmission. it'll rev high in any gear if you floor it hard enough. do you have a tach? do you know your axle gearing? what size engine do you have? i have read a few magazine articles about building a 400 HP 318 engine. they always kept the stock crank shaft (one of the few things they did right with the 318). revving it up to 6000 rpms isnt a big deal for the stock crank. if i recall correctly, they cut themselves off at 6500 rpms with the stock crank shaft @415HP. the other article i read was 6300 rpms @400 HP. both used the stock crank. and they both said they felt they couldve taken up even higher in the rpm range. just saying that 318's were built to spill. they have more potential than people think
Ya I read some of those articles too. The 318 is actually a pretty damn good motor. The only downfall, performance wise, is getting the ideal compression but you can get it pretty close. The other cool thing is that you can build a 400hp 318 using mostly stock parts.

Anyaways, I have a 318, no tach but I will probably get one soon, and Im not sure about the gearing(how do I find out?)

I wasnt so much worried about it reving so high as much as I was surprised. It definitely sounded great with the exhaust , and felt nice to actually see some power coming out.

You do seem to know a fair amount about these trucks. For example, my other thread about the lift... I always thought the d-series were 4wd also, largely because at O'riley they dont even have a w150 in there system and have the 4wd option listed under d150. Not to mention, its hard to keep track of all the changes in these trucks. For example, I noticed you have an 87, and if I remember correctly, I think around this year they changed the truck series to the ram with power ram being the 4wd model. Doe yours have a carb? I used to have an 88, and it had throttle body fuel injection. I think 88 was the first year for that but it couldve been 87 though.
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maachine
 
 Posted: 02-29-2012, 04:04 AM
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ya i believe 88 was the first year they had fuel injection. ya my truck has a carb. and ya i am a noob to dodge trucks, but i have had a lot of time to do research. real life experience, not so much. paper wise, i do know some shit. also i have gone through some of the same questions you have.

gearing.....look for a tag attached to any bolts on the cover. if not, jack up your rear end (both tires off the ground). spin a tire, if you have an open diff, your other tire should spin opposite, for every one tire rotaion, times your axle rotaion by 2....i think. i've been drinking. if you have a limited slip, your opposite tire should spin the same direction. every one tire rotation, times your axle rotation by one. so if your tire spins 1 times and axle spins approximately 3.25 times with limited slip differential (lsd) then you most likely have 3.21 gears. now if you spin the tire once with an open diff (opposite tire spins opposite way) and you get around 1.6 turns with the drive shaft, times it by 2. same thing, probably have have 3.21 gears. do all this with the tranny in park. you follow?
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some sort of lift
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LA 360 bored .030 over, EQ Magnum heads, Hooker Headers, true dual exhaust, Holley 4160 w/Truck Avenger parts, Edelbrock Performer dual plane intake, StreetFire ignition box & MSD coil
208 t-case/727A trans w/3.23 gears
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maachine
 
 Posted: 02-29-2012, 04:10 AM
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Post #18

did you find a lift?
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1987 Dodge W-150 "The Beast"
some sort of lift
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LA 360 bored .030 over, EQ Magnum heads, Hooker Headers, true dual exhaust, Holley 4160 w/Truck Avenger parts, Edelbrock Performer dual plane intake, StreetFire ignition box & MSD coil
208 t-case/727A trans w/3.23 gears
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ssroadrunner
 
 Posted: 02-29-2012, 05:47 AM
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Post #19

i chunked the linkage and used the lokar cable, much easier to adjust
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charlie1935
 
 Posted: 02-29-2012, 08:34 AM
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Post #20

Quote:
Originally Posted by maachine View Post
ya i believe 88 was the first year they had fuel injection. ya my truck has a carb. and ya i am a noob to dodge trucks, but i have had a lot of time to do research. real life experience, not so much. paper wise, i do know some shit. also i have gone through some of the same questions you have.

gearing.....look for a tag attached to any bolts on the cover. if not, jack up your rear end (both tires off the ground). spin a tire, if you have an open diff, your other tire should spin opposite, for every one tire rotaion, times your axle rotaion by 2....i think. i've been drinking. if you have a limited slip, your opposite tire should spin the same direction. every one tire rotation, times your axle rotation by one. so if your tire spins 1 times and axle spins approximately 3.25 times with limited slip differential (lsd) then you most likely have 3.21 gears. now if you spin the tire once with an open diff (opposite tire spins opposite way) and you get around 1.6 turns with the drive shaft, times it by 2. same thing, probably have have 3.21 gears. do all this with the tranny in park. you follow?
If you do that with the tranny in park the driveshaft will not turn.
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