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aussie78
 
  bank one running rich - Posted: 07-05-2010, 08:00 PM
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Post #1

hey guys, I have been searching on this site for some help with some issues with my 2002 caravan... it has a 3.3L and about 170,000 Kms on the clock. Bought it used about two years ago.

It has run like a top since purchase until about a month ago. The engine started to misfire to the point of feeling it In idle and in gear. Let me give you some more info on what's been happening....

- first started off with feeling the miss every once in a while, i would say every couple minutes of driving you could feel it.
- gradually got worse to the point of thinking it will stall (idle at 400 to 500rpm) it got this bad within a week and this is when the CEL decided to light up. Code 0172 (running rich on bank one)
- checked plugs. cylinder 3 plug was fouled very badly, black soot all over it. All other plugs were white. Replaced #3 plug to see if it would be corrected - nope.
- Replaced All plugs, Still no change.
- replaced wires and ran half of a bottle of Seafoam through the brake booster vac hose, and the rest in the gas tank. Fuel was around 3/4. Let sit for twenty five minutes and started. Ran at 2200rpm until the magic smoke dissapeared. Took it for a spin on the highway. Ran like normal intermittantly (say, about every second or so). This is where i thought i was on the right road until it started to run like crap again... within about five minutes. Parked it for the day.
- replaced coil pack with a used one from local car junk yard. no change.
- ran another half bottle of Seafoam through it again. Not much change this time.
- had a mechanic come look at it. found out it runs just wonderfully when cold. As soon as it warms up (within a couple minutes) its back to crapsville. He tried shutting off each individual injector and all it would do is idle up about a hundred or so rpm on every cylinder. Im not sure what else he did, just didnt find anything out.
- I replaced the battery because we had been having issues with it not starting every once in a while.
- also found out there is a "sweet spot" in the throttle before it bogs down. it will have power at just under full throttle.

I'm sorry i was long winded for my first post but thought i would give all the information i could.
Hope I can get some help from you great bunch of people here.
As a matter of fact I think it was this site that helped me last year with my heater blend door problem (it had broken and had to cut out the old one and glue it all back together Saved me a grand on repairs with that one! Anyway, I'll be waiting for a fix on this issue...

Aussie
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Rick99
 
 Posted: 07-06-2010, 07:04 AM
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Post #2

Looking at your symptoms, I'm going to guess Cylinder 3 injector stuck open. It would run fine, or at least better, when cold because the computer wants everything rich until warmed up. After warm up, the computer is reading the rich condition and maxing out the fuel trim for all cylinders to the lean side in an attempt to compensate. Since it's cutting gas to all of the good cylinders, it runs even worse. The repair would be to replace the cylinder 3 injector.
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2003 Durango SLT
AWD, 4.7l
Mods: Remote Start
Just got a new set of BFG All-Terrains
Planning retrofit to 4WABS

1999 Durango SLT+
4x4, 5.2l
Mods: B&M Supercooler, Ford OEM Remote Start/Keyless Entry/Alarm, Heated Seats

01 T&C Limited 3.8l
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gbeach
 
 Posted: 07-06-2010, 07:12 AM
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Post #3

my 1998 is doing the exact same thing. you described my problem to a t. ran fuel injector cleaner, new pcv valve. still no change. has anyone had a fix for this.
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aussie78
 
 Posted: 07-06-2010, 06:27 PM
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Post #4

alright, I picked up a whole set of used injectors. I'm thinking I will replace all of them... question is... is there a way to clean them out before i install them? Maybe a filter that needs to be replaced or seals?

Thanks for getting back to me on this issue so quickly too!
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Rick99
 
 Posted: 07-06-2010, 07:41 PM
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Post #5

I think you should just try to change out the one for now. You don't know what problems you may inherit with a whole set of used injectors. There are no filters to change (they may have an inlet screen), but you could change out the o-rings. There are services that you can send your injectors to and they will use high powered equipment and solvents to clean them out and test to make sure they are performing as new, but for now, I think you should swap just the no 3 out with one of your used injectors and see what happens.
__________________
2003 Durango SLT
AWD, 4.7l
Mods: Remote Start
Just got a new set of BFG All-Terrains
Planning retrofit to 4WABS

1999 Durango SLT+
4x4, 5.2l
Mods: B&M Supercooler, Ford OEM Remote Start/Keyless Entry/Alarm, Heated Seats

01 T&C Limited 3.8l
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aussie78
 
 Posted: 07-06-2010, 11:21 PM
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Post #6

I checked the plugs before i took apart the top end and found the no 3 AND 5 plugs were fouled, so i decided to replace both those injectors. thought i could reuse the orings on the other four but didnt work too well, oh well off to the parts store again... so I will update tommorrow with what i find. It seems VERY easy to replace the injectors - if i had the right tools handy I would have had it done in half an hour! (minus the parts runs, of course)
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aussie78
 
 Posted: 07-07-2010, 09:57 PM
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Post #7

ok.... replaced the two injectors and guess what!? NOT a change at all. Didnt make it worse, didn't make it better. Just like I did nothing at all... Could I be looking at a new PCM? Any other options out there for me to look at?
Thanks guys, one more thing down on the list to try
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Rick99
 
 Posted: 07-08-2010, 08:20 AM
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Post #8

Sorry to send you on a wild goose chase with the injectors. Unfortunately that's the limitation to online diagnosis-- if I were there, I could hook up a scan tool and check a few things like whether the computer is really adjusting the fuel trims to lean and what cylinders are misfiring according to the misfire monitor.

You did just give a new piece of information though-- about the no. 5 plug also being fouled. It is interesting that two adjacent cylinders seem to have a problem. Do you have (or can you access) a compression gauge? It would be good to rule that out. Other things that come to mind-- I assumed that your junkyard coil replacement ruled it out as a problem, but would be good to use a spark tester to see if you are actually getting a good consistent spark to those cylinders. You could also use a noid light to check if the injector driver circuits are working properly (though I would expect a code if there was a short in those circuits). That's all I can think of right now.
__________________
2003 Durango SLT
AWD, 4.7l
Mods: Remote Start
Just got a new set of BFG All-Terrains
Planning retrofit to 4WABS

1999 Durango SLT+
4x4, 5.2l
Mods: B&M Supercooler, Ford OEM Remote Start/Keyless Entry/Alarm, Heated Seats

01 T&C Limited 3.8l
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aussie78
 
 Posted: 07-08-2010, 07:02 PM
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Post #9

hey, in no way was i bitchin about the help you have given! Keep the good ideas coming! I can get a compression gauge and test that but not sure when... I might be giving the van to a mechanic to start a diagnosis and see what they say again. but Ill keep you all posted.

Thanks alot

Aussie
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aussie78
 
 Posted: 07-24-2010, 09:29 AM
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Post #10

Update on my van's issue...
Took it to a Dealer and they came up with a code from the upstream oxygen sensor. I asked them if that wouldn't fix the problem then what would they do. "keep replacing parts until its fixed" is what I got back (and that of course is at MY cost). Is that really what mechanics do these days? Doesn't sound right to me.
So I did it myself and what do ya know - didn't change anything. I'm thinking of doing the compression test but it's a pain enough to do the plugs! this sucks.
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aussie78
 
 Posted: 08-06-2010, 08:42 AM
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Post #11

so after driving the van for a couple more weeks (only kid hauler we have) yesterday it the wife said it was creating a very thick cloud of smoke behind her. I confirmed this when i got home from work. At first i thought it was a nice shade of blue with lots of sputtering and just generally having a hard time idling, with a overpowering smell of raw gas. I got the bright idea of maybe the valve seals are shot so i went and got some barhdal oil conditioner for the seals thinking it will help out until i can get it in the shop again next week. After putting in the required dosage of that thick disgusting crap i started the van and noticed that it was spitting raw gas out the exhaust, and anything above idle it was clouding out the neighborhood in WHITE smoke (dont know if i was just imagining the blue when i checked after work now). I am going to guess that both those injectors are being informed that they need to stay stuck wide open now.
In another post someone mentioned their wires in the wiring harness under the coil pack were missing some insulation and shorting out. Maybe this is what is happening?
any other ideas? thanks for your help so far guys and gals!
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Rick99
 
 Posted: 08-06-2010, 06:15 PM
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Post #12

Check the wiring. The injectors receive constant positive power when the engine is running and the computer controls them by pulsing the negative. If the insulation is damaged and shorted to ground it could lock them on. You could check for a short by pulling the connector at the injector and using a multimeter to check for short to ground. If you see a short, then try disconnecting the computer and see if the short is still there-- this will tell you if the short is in the computer (bad computer) or in the harness.
__________________
2003 Durango SLT
AWD, 4.7l
Mods: Remote Start
Just got a new set of BFG All-Terrains
Planning retrofit to 4WABS

1999 Durango SLT+
4x4, 5.2l
Mods: B&M Supercooler, Ford OEM Remote Start/Keyless Entry/Alarm, Heated Seats

01 T&C Limited 3.8l
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aussie78
 
 Posted: 08-10-2010, 10:21 PM
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Post #13

alright, I took apart the harness and found the wires were just fine. I did, remove the intake again and found out that number five connector IS giving an issue. I measured the other injectors and found they had one wire grounded (about 6ohms) and the other was not. Just by moving the wires on number five gave me a short to ground intermittantly on the one that shouldn't (about 20ohms). I tried disconnecting the pcm and was very little change, it increased the resistance. I don't remember by how much. But was very little, I remember.
Had the injector harness attached to the used fuel rail i bought from the junkyard, so I threw that one in. Put it all back together and Still hasn't done anything positive to my situation. Still blowing white smoke and spitting raw gas out the exhaust pipe. It smells just like gasoline. Not sweet at all like coolant.
what else am I missing. I guess I should do that compression test?
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bobbylingan
 
 Posted: 08-21-2010, 09:13 AM
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Post #14

I am having the same issue with my 2002 4.7L RAM. Someone suggested everything that all of you mentioned (changed out the injector, ignition coil, check wiring, etc.) which helped a little, but did not solve the issue. I was doing some research and checked with a local mechanic. He suggested I try this SeaFoam from any auto shop or Wal-Mart. This cleans out water, gunk, and injectors from the inside out. It also adds a better burn to the fuel. He also says since all the new gas that you get from the pump contains a hybrid of something with "oxygen", our older engines do not burn as well and fouls up plugs. I have tried it in my tank for a couple of weeks and first tank burned out some white & black smoke. After the third tank, no more issues. Truck runs great.
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aussie78
 
 Posted: 08-23-2010, 10:22 PM
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Post #15

ya, did the seafoam thing... helped a bit but short lived. The van is now in my garage awaiting me to get off my ass and take off the heads and see what's going on... Procrastination at its best!
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aussie78
 
 Posted: 11-10-2010, 10:55 PM
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Post #16

well, didnt ever "find" the time to look at this anymore so we took it to a mechanic (not a dodge mechanic, like the one we took it to before that told us it was the oxygen sensor).
Turned out it was the PCM that was messed up. Could have been from the wiring harness that was shorting out (replaced).
Around $550 CDN was the charge, including changing oil and reflashing the PCM. Nice huh?
Thanks for everyone that responded with some help - It was and will always be appreciated!
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