Replaced Fuel Pump, STILL NO START!!!!!!! - DodgeTalk : Dodge Car Forums, Dodge Truck Forums and Ram Forums
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#1 Old 12-23-2008, 02:38 PM
Thunderbeast89
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Replaced Fuel Pump, STILL NO START!!!!!!!

Alright Guys,

I replaced the fuel pump last weekend with a Walbro OEM replacement.

Everything went jolly, no problems. The ONLY thing that didn't go as planned, when I ciphoned the gas, there was a plastic piece that plugged into the hose that goes into the tank, and when I pulled that hose out, the plastic piece got stuck behind the first flap in the gas tank (where you stick the nozzle in when pumping gas).

Anywho, I got it all back together, and primed the fuel system a couple times, it is easy to hear the fuel pump turn on.

When I try to start it, nothing. It sounds healthy, sounds like it wants to, but nothing. I've primed it multiple times, no luck.

I've pulled all the relays, no luck.

I've reset the computer, no luck.

I've re-charged the battery, no luck.

When I use started fluid, it will start until there is no more starting fluid to burn.

WHAT CAN THIS BE??

The only codes it is pulling are useless, 12 and 55. That is if my memory serves me well and that #12 is "Battery unhooked within last 50 key turns" ?

Any ideas guys?

I HIGHLY doubt that plastic piece is blocking the fuel, because I put 5 gallons into the tank, and if it was blocking the flow, the 5 gallons would have spilled out all over the place. And the plastic line that goes INTO the actual tank itself, is too narrow for that piece to travel that far. So there's no way it made it into the tank to block fuel from being picked up.

Please help!
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#2 Old 12-23-2008, 05:30 PM
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Lets start with the basics. You think you are getting fuel but can you confirm that @ the fuel rail? Pushing the shrader (sp?) valve in should shoot fuel out past the front of the car. Really it should spray ya in the pants if you are not careful.


edit: If you are thinking this piece broke off in the fill tube and can not get past a certain point to enter the tank then I don't see how that could be the issue.

So what about spark? You can pull a plug wire, insert a long screwdriver, lay it near the valve cover and watch for an arc while cranking the motor? Make sure the screwdriver makes contact with the inside of the plug or that will not work btw~

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#3 Old 12-23-2008, 09:43 PM
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Like Tx said check for fuel at the rail by the shrader valve, maybe the fuel pump fuse popped?

2001 Sebring Sedan 2.4 Auto

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#4 Old 12-23-2008, 10:23 PM
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If the fuse is blown it will not prime. He said he could hear it prime up in the first post I think.

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#5 Old 12-23-2008, 10:55 PM
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Ahh, brain fart.

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#6 Old 12-24-2008, 08:32 AM
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Yeah, the only reason I havent pursued those other ideas is simply because it ran PERFECT before the fuel pump took a crap on me.

It only has 54,000 miles. I ran it out of gas one time, and that pretty much killed the fuel pump.

I guess my only choice IS to go to basics. I was just wondering if maybe there is some kind of fuel shut off? And yes...I CAN hear the fuel pump turn on.
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#7 Old 12-27-2008, 11:07 PM
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pull the fuel pump fuse and give it a try

2001 Neon SOHC 5 Speed - Midnight Blue

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#8 Old 12-30-2008, 09:21 AM
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Where is the fuel pump fuse? Are you talking about the automatic shutoff relay in the Power Distribution block?

I pulled ALL the relays, tried starting it...nothing.

I can get it to start with STARTER fluid, but once that runs out, it dies. So then it becomes safe to say that i'm "not" getting fuel at the rail...but how is this possible? Read my 1st post for background info... a little piece of plastic DID fall behind the first "flap" in the gas door, where you stick the nozzle when pumping gas. But there's no way it made it into the tank where it could block the fuel from being pumped.

So if I can hear the fuel pump turn on, but I'm obviously not getting fuel at the rail...then where to start? Maybe the fuel pump was never the problem...?? But even then, before I changed the fuel pump, it would run for 30min before I'd have a problem (figured the fuel pump would work itself out) and the car would die.
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#9 Old 12-30-2008, 11:42 AM
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I think we are making something simple very complicated.


IMO the pice of plastic on the fuel filler tube is NOT an issue at this point.

If the relay's are pulled the car will NOT start. The fuel pump is powered by one of the relays.

It will also NOT work if the fuel pump fuse is pulled. How could it with a broken circuit (no fuse) ?




What was the condition of the car before the fuel pump was installed? Was the stock fuel pump dead? It may be a walboro but it is a 100% exact replacement, only way better so there should be no issues there.


If you are sure you hear the fuel pump prime when the key is turned forward I would say you are not getting spark. Has a wire come loose? Can we verify you are getting spark? I asked that question last week up there ^ and IMO is next in the troubleshooting steps.


For the motor to run you need fuel; spark; compression; and air. We think we have fuel, we should have compression, and we know we have air.

Now lets check the spark.


I am working on my motor so I will be around all day if you need help.





~Fire

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#10 Old 12-30-2008, 12:19 PM
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I "pulled" the relays, and plugged them back in. Everything is hooked up.

Before I replaced the fuel pump, I ran the car out of gas, and ever SINCE then the car would not run steady. I can do circles going in one direction, but not the other. That led me to believe it was obviously to fuel pump, concluding that it would only do circles in one direction because the fuel was all bunched up on the side of the tank where the pickup tube is.

I would think we have to be getting spark if the car can run on starting fluid, right?

The car would run for about 30min before I changed the fuel pump, before it would die. So I figured the fuel pump was on its last leg.


So if the car is running on starting fluid, it has spark.
And if I can hear the fuel pump turn on, then I should be getting fluid.

The battery seems to be draining though...
Any connection somehow?

I only try to start the car with a jumper pack or jump starting. Just because the battery was draining itself, and the extra juice cannot hurt.
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#11 Old 12-30-2008, 02:26 PM
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I forgot about the starting fluid thing. So ya you should have spark.


Did you ever change your fuel filter? You could have sucked up crap off the bottom of the tank and clogged it.


Also to check the fuel pressure take the cap off the schrader valve on the fuel rail and press it in after turning the key forward to prime it. Fuel should spray out 3ft or so.

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#12 Old 01-07-2009, 08:31 PM
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What is nominal pressure for 94-97 & 98-99 Neons ??
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#13 Old 01-07-2009, 09:49 PM
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49 psi

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#14 Old 03-31-2009, 02:07 PM
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GUYS!!!!!! Now i REALLY need help!!!

So I took the tank down, and decided to test the pump.

I put gas into a bucket, hooked up the pump to 12v, boom, it shoots fuel everywhere. Then I hooked it up to the fuel line, used outside 12v, and fuel shot 3feet out of the shrader valve on the fuel rail.

In other words, NOTHING is blocking the fuel, and the fuel pump works. What is happening is, when I turn the key to "on" the fuel pump primes itself, BUT when I try to turn the engine on, THE FUEL PUMP DOES NOT PUMP GAS.

I did some research and found out that the PCM only tells the fuel pump to start pumping when it receives a signal from the crankshaft sensor.

So what I'm asking is... has ANYONE ever heard of this problem before? EVERYTHING is perfectly fine with my fuel system, but for SOME reason the PCM isn't telling the fuel pump to send fuel when I'm trying to start the motor.

This COULD mean there is a short somewhere...maybe the crankshaft sensor shorted itself out, and that's why my battery is draining itself, and that's why the PCM isn't telling the fuel pump to kick fuel up to engine.

ANY IDEAS? Can anyone confirm this? Where's a good place to get a used PCM? Any idea how much I should pay? And what about crankshaft sensors?

Are either common parts to go bad?

THANKS
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#15 Old 03-31-2009, 10:18 PM
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Are you suggesting when you turn the key forward your fuel pressure drops? And this could be tested either by like what you did and checked the schrader valve or you can put a meter on the pump wires and watch to see if it drops from 12v or not.

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#16 Old 04-01-2009, 09:59 AM
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yes. I KNOW for a fact that absolutely NOTHING is blocking the fuel, because I have manually hooked up 12v and watched the fuel fly out of the fuel rail.

and when I turn the key to "on" you can hear it turn on.

BUT, when I try to turn the motor over, the fuel pump is NOT sending fuel.

from outside research and a hayne's manual, it says that the computer does not tell the fuel pump to send fuel unless it is receiving a signal from the crankshaft sensor.

one of two things is happening:

1. PCM is not receiving a signal from crankshaft signal

2. PCM IS receiving a signal, but for some reason PCM has gone bad

Are either of those common?
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#17 Old 04-01-2009, 04:21 PM
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How do you know it's not sending fuel?


When you turn the key the fuel pump primes to 48-49 psi and stops. Most of the time it does NOT run while cranking. The pump will kick back in once the car starts to keep your fuel pressure up.


Have you checked the wires /plugs going to the Cam Position Sensor as well as the Crank Position? They have to be in sync before the PCM fires the plugs.

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"Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea"~Breitbart http://biggovernment.com
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#18 Old 04-02-2009, 03:10 PM
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blah. i know because i know! leave it at that! hahahaha
kidding.

Plugs are firing, BECAUSE IT RUNS ON STARTER FLUID.

I know it's not sending fuel because there is no fuel pressure!

HOWEVER, you can hear the pump "turn on" when the key is in the "on" position.


Okay, imagine you're sitting in your neon. You turn key to "on", and you hear the fuel pump turn on. You go to crank, it tries and tries and tries, and nothing. You go to schrader valve, it DRIPS out = NO FUEL PRESSURE.

Therefore, you KNOW that the wires work because the pump initially turns on when key is at "on" position. HOWEVER, when you go to crank, fuel pump doesn't do anything. Fuel pump HAS to pump when you are cranking the engine.

Edit: Okay, so even if the fuel pump doesn't pump when "cranking", i KNOW that the wire harness going to the fuel pump is 100% FUNCTIONAL because you can hear the pump "turn on" however, the PCM is not telling the fuel pump to SEND fuel. If I hook up an outside 12v to the wire connecter, the fuel pump WORKS.

So you have a working fuel pump, with a 100% functional wire harness, yet for some reason, no fuel pressure, and NOTHING is blocking the fuel lines. No more asking questions, THESE ARE FACTS!
haha
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#19 Old 04-02-2009, 09:56 PM
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Good luck.

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"Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea"~Breitbart http://biggovernment.com
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#20 Old 04-17-2009, 08:17 PM
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Haha I was only kidding!

Is there anyway to test that the crankshaft and camshaft sensor are functioning? I bought a used PCM and put it in my car in order to RULE OUT that the PCM was faulty.

Car is still doing the exact same thing.


NO codes are being thrown. Wouldn't the PCM throw a DTC for the camshaft or crankshaft position sensor if it was grounded out or not sending a proper signal?

I've read up on the process the PCM goes through in order to decide whether it should send fuel, etc. From what I understand, if the PCM does not receive signals from the crankshaft position sensor and camshaft sensor, then the ADS and Fuel Pump relay are de-energized, in other words - shut down.

ARE Camshaft sensors and/or crankshaft position sensors prone to breaking or going bad?

A little history that MAY help....before I replaced the fuel pump, the car would drive for 25 minutes (or so, sometimes only 10, sometimes 40 minutes) before it would up and die. Sometimes I could start it right back up, sometimes that was impossible. ALL of my troubles started when I ran the car out of gas one day, so naturally I assumed that I had over-worked the fuel pump and it needed to be replaced. I am slowly but surely beginning to think that the fuel pump was never the problem at all.

Are the above symptoms anything that have to do with bad crankshaft position or camshaft sensors? I just don't understand why the car would drive for X amount of time, then all of a sudden die. Do those sensors act that way when dying?

THIS IS WHY I'm A FORD GUY!!!!! haha
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