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Motor Oil and Air Filter

6K views 32 replies 7 participants last post by  sgbofav 
#1 ·
I have a 99 Durango SLT and I put about 45 to 60 mile a day on it so I have to change the oil a lot quicker than normal. I want to switch over to a syntheic brand cause I heard that you can ride with it longer than the normal 10w30 that I put in it now. What kinds of syntheic oils are good for a Durango? I currently use Valvoline 10w30 motor oil.

And for my second question, I want to go with a better air filter than the paper made one and I heard that K&N makes some of the best filter out there. Does anyone here use K&N filters on their Durango, and if so do you notice a performance differenc as compaired to a stock air filter? I hoping that with going with a better brand of motor oil and air filter I can save a tad on gas since I drive a lot during the week. Thanks for all those who reply
 
#2 ·
I just changed my synthetic oil on my 4.7 Dakota. It had 1 year and 16,000 miles worth of driving on it. Of course I'm biased on my oil choice. To be fair, you can learn alot about synthetic oils here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=1
and here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=3


Before you consider, K&N read these threads and make an educated decision.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=15
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000175
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000025
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000092

Bill,
 
#3 ·
Let me ask you sgbofav, what type of air filter do you run in your Dakota?
 
#4 ·
pervitizm said:
Let me ask you sgbofav, what type of air filter do you run in your Dakota?
I removed my K&N drop-in filter and switched to Amsoil's Flowzair. Here is what the materials look like.


Here is another picture at the top off the page.
http://www.amsoil.com/products/oil_airfilters/index.htm

I tried both and found the engine to be more responsive with the Flowzair. I also run a Flowzair filter in my 1998 Olds Cutlass (family car).


If your curious about what Amsoil costs, I'd be glad to private message you with all the information that you want or may need.


Bill,
 
#5 ·
Yeah if you could just email me the price and where to find them at pervitizm@yahoo.com

Thanks
 
#6 ·
"I want to switch over to a syntheic brand cause I heard that you can ride with it longer than the normal 10w30 that I put in it now."

Ah.....the age old question/debate...."Is sythetic worth he money and can I extend my oil change intervals?" <grin> Well, the internet is full of people's opinions on this....some claim to have scientific findings to back them up and others, like me, rely on coomon sense and good old fashioned mathematics to decide.

(Dave Zavetsky pulls out his trusty soapbox, steps up onto it and clears his thrat.....)

While you can extend the service intervals, keep in mind that the breakdown if the oil molecules is not the ONLY issue....the additives and detergents break down faster than the synthetic oil.....plus, esepcially on an older engine that has been running dino oil for years and has some wear already, oil gets dirty.....period. The only way to make the oil NOT dirty is to change it.....filters only filter out the largest dirts particles.....all the rest is suspended in the oil (hence one reason why oil gets darker with use)

Also, for those of us with warrantys or extended warrantys, you MUST change oil at the manufacturer guidelines in the manual to keep those warranties in tact......the argument that "The oil manufacturer says I can go 100k miles before changing" is only valid IF the manufacturer of the vehicle supports that finding....and most do not yet.

I have heard folks going 5k miles or so before changes with good results.....I have also heard of people going much longer with cetain brands and they claim great results. But keep in mind that the damage from not changing oil frequently enough isnt an overnight kind of thing..it takes miles and miles and miles for damage to show up.....and by then its too late.

For me, the solution is to run Mobil 1 Synthetic or Halvoline Synthetic and change every 3k miles. Some may see the use of synthetic oil in freqent oil changes as a "waste"...after all, the Mobil 1 I use is $4/quart.....decent dino oil is like $2/quart.....so twice the cost....

But I just look at it as additional protection over and above that provided by using regualr oil....insurance if you will.....We pay tons of money every year on insurance "just in case" and yet we try to skrimp on oil chanegs when the oil changes will (hopefully) provide the most return on investment.

Too many oil/filter changes will never hurt...going too long will though, and new engines are pricey. Is it worth thrisk to not have to change oil so often?? Only you can decide that....

Some folks will advocate oil testing etc to see what your engine "is really doing"......Good idea, but those tests are not free, so figure $10 or more extra every oil change to do the tests....in the end, expense wise, you are better off (IMHO) to just change every 3k-4k miles.....

Then again, if your 99 has over 100k miles, changing to syntehtic and going longer like 5-7k miles may not hurt anything at this point.....I guess itdepends on your outlook and how long you want to try to make your engine last.....

"What kinds of syntheic oils are good for a Durango? I currently use Valvoline 10w30 motor oil."

I use Mobil 1 in my Durango, but have used Halvoline in my 92 Dakota and my 98 Malibu, and in my 94 Explorer before I got rid of that vehicle....so far so good.

"Does anyone here use K&N filters on their Durango, and if so do you notice a performance differenc as compaired to a stock air filter?"

I use a K&N drop-in filter in my 2003 Durango, and K&N in all my other vehicles as well......WHile you dont get a huge horsepower increase, I feel like the vehicles have more top end and better overall response....its a subjective seat oft he pants thing though...Dont install ANY aftermarket filter expecting some huge power gain....it aint gonna happen. As for gas mileage,I honestlycant say one way or the other...I basically make a K&N my first mod, so I dont get much time driving with the paper element....The biggest advantage to a K&N or other reusable filter is that it is reusable.....and more free flowing.
 
#7 ·
esepcially on an older engine that has been running dino oil for years and has some wear already, oil gets dirty.....period. The only way to make the oil NOT dirty is to change it.....filters only filter out the largest dirts particles.....all the rest is suspended in the oil (hence one reason why oil gets darker with use)
My response to the sludge or dirty engine theory is that it is in fact true. Over time, the engine accumulates deposits such as sludge, varnish, etc. There are remedies that do in fact take care of this problem.

Here is a quote from a lubricant analyzer who specializes in testing automobile oil.

A motor oil can only clean the first layer of contamination" - Terry Dyson, Dyson Analysis http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/terry.html

"Flush" is perhaps an overused and misunderstood term. I prefer the term: "cleaning", or more precisely "internal engine oil system cleaning". A clean engine allows the oil to do the intended job.

Solvent Flushes - Some engine flush products and systems can be harmful to your engine and really don't clean as well as advertised. I will not comment on the various machines and proprietary solvents used at lube centers and some auto repair shops other than the idea of aromatic solvent under pressure flowing through an engine does not appeal to me. Solvent under pressure could potentially dislodge large chunks of deposits, clogging passages with little chance of further dissolving. There is also concern with this pressure on seals. The solvent products used only under idle conditions are generally safer than the pressure flushes, but under NO circumstances would I recommend driving with these solvent products or diesel fuel, ATF, or other "cleaning product" in the crankcase that severely dilutes, thins and shears motor oil. Lastly there is always the question of how much solvent remains. This is certainly a concern. Always allow a long drain period to allow the diluted oil to run out (which it should readily do) but also allow the aromatics to evaporate from the warm engine opened engine. Following a treatment with a good solvent cleaning, I recommend a short oil change interval. AMSOIL engine flush is an idle only product that is not harmful but does fall short in the actual cleaning performance. AMSOIL engine flush is simply poured into the crankcase (after installing a NEW oil filter), the engine is idled 15 minutes, shut down, then drained for as long as possible with filter removed.

Tear down and clean - This would be good if you could, but it usually requires a few weekends, some big cash, some thick books, many years of knowledge and maybe a little intestinal fortitude. Usually advised only if you have a mechanical problem, a problem that requires tear down anyway. Not practical for your otherwise fine running Volvo turbo, Lexus or Suburban.

Synthetic oil cleaning- Synthetic oil alone will clean some areas of your engine, some areas where oil pools and even some oil galleys will be cleaned a bit with synthetic oil alone. Some issues with this, the cleaning will be slow at best, and even though it may not sound logical - this cleaned contamination will be put into suspension in your oil and reduce the time you can use the oil via contamination. Another issue, is that some areas just will not be cleaned with the oil alone. A good example are the ring grooves and the surfaces of the rings.

Additive cleaning- This is a new area of engine cleaning. Most of the chemistry is relatively new, but don't let that scare you, because A) it is very safe B) the ester based compounds are natural. I highly recommend a product called Auto-Rx® . The usage instructions, which are updated periodically on the Auto-Rx® web page, are subdivided somewhat logically into low/high mileage treatment categories. This makes sense because cars with more miles will have a tendency to have dirtier engines, but car and engine type, driving style, maintenance routines, oil variety also play large roles in how much dirt and sludge will be built up. A car with under 50,000 miles of stop and go driving with petroleum oil changed at 8,000 mile intervals (if the owner remembers) could have a sludge problem that needs cleaning.

So why clean your engine?

If you are switching over to synthetic oil, some of the benefits will become much more apparent if you start with a clean engine. Longer oil change intervals, better cooling, more power are just a couple key characteristics that are enhanced if old petroleum oil residues are removed. Just changing to any synthetic oil will not completely clean your engine - honestly I used to think this - but there are just some locations in the engine that oil won't clean. Auto-Rx® will clean these areas and allow the synthetic oil to keep the rings free floating, thus allowing a better compression seal and result in more power and less emissions, for example.

If you start with a seriously clean engine your oil will last longer and frankly will protect the engine better. Many of the deposits and crud, and especially the more harmful by-products of petroleum oil oxidation tend to have an acidic reaction. This will deplete the additives in any motor oil.

www.auto-rx.com , www.lubecontrol.com, http://www.amsoil.com/products/aef.html


I posted links to oil related forums where you can review actual oil analysis results. On the Used oil analysis forum,their are numerous turbocharged 4cyl cars such as Audis and Suburu WRXs safely running their oil anywhere from 5000 to 9000 plus mile oil changes. The key is that they are running full synthetic oils such as Amsoil and Mobil 1. A turbocharged car is harder on oil than your average car or truck.

You can help your oil last longer by running a quality fuel additive such as "Fuel power" from www.lubecontrol.com or even Amsoil's Performance Improver http://www.amsoil.com/products/api.html. These additives improve combustion which reduces fuel dilution in the oil. The $2.00 cheap fuel improvers don't cut it here. There are plenty of oil analysis results showing improved oil durability when using the first two products.


Here is a running test on oil where they analyze the oil every 1000 miles. They have already tested Mobil 1 and they are currently testing Amsoil:
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
More info on the first test: http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html


There opinion on oil change intervals (very good reading): http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/interval.html

Bill,
 
#8 ·
The "study" they did on Mobil One (and now doing AMSOIL) , while interesting, isnt really much more than that....

The test they did on Mobil One is HARDLY scientific.....they are doing "generally" the same type of driving.....however, think about how many VARIABLES there are in 7,000 miles of driving....weather, driving conditions, fuel conditions, engine performance issues, etc etc etc etc.

And that is for ONE brand, model and year of a car....with a specific engine, etc...

With all the variables, the "study" doesnt do much besides say that for that particular car and with those particular variables, the oil held up....

I think the ONLY thing they said there that could really absolutely apply to anyone else reding the article is

"Are you going to trust a $5,000 engine to $40 worth of motor oil that supposedly can go 25,000 miles without a change?! "

In reality, if you dont do regualr oil tests on your OWN vehicle under your own conditions, these studies (whether done by the oil manufacturer or independent groups) are too vague...

Now, if they did a very broad-based battery of tests on a broad base of test vehicles over a long period of time, I would say they would be onto something....

Just my opine....

DZ
 
#9 ·
Of course that is just one vehicle being tested and the results are not applicable to all vehicles. It is an intersting read and as well as informative
as to the effects of mileage on oil.

I still think you focus to much on the 25,000 mile claim. Unless you do nothing but drive hundreds of freeway miles per day, you won't be able to
reach Amsoil's 25,000 mile limit. in this case, you would change the oil filter at 6 months and your oil at 1 year. Thousands Oil analysis results have proven this to be possible.


I still suggest you stick to what is comfortable for you. I am against the 3000 mile oil change because it has been proven to be a waste of good oil petroleum or synthetic. I even stress the point to potential customers that they don't have to run their oil as long as Amsoil recommends if they prefer not to.

Bill,
 
#10 · (Edited)
sgbofav said:
I still think you focus to much on the 25,000 mile claim. Unless you do nothing but drive hundreds of freeway miles per day, you won't be able to
reach Amsoil's 25,000 mile limit. in this case, you would change the oil filter at 6 months and your oil at 1 year. Thousands Oil analysis results have proven this to be possible.


I still suggest you stick to what is comfortable for you. I am against the 3000 mile oil change because it has been proven to be a waste of good oil petroleum or synthetic. I even stress the point to potential customers that they don't have to run their oil as long as Amsoil recommends if they prefer not to.

Bill,
Saying "you would change the oil filter at 6 months and your oil at 1 year." is (in my opinion) a horribly generic statement.

Some folks put on 1,500 miles ayear on their vehicles (like my garage-queen Dakota) or 30,000 a year (my brother in law who uses his panel van for his business, mostly city miles).....it has been shown that oil that oil thathas sat in an oil pan for a year without being used much (like my garage queen) can be in worse shape than oil that has been used for more than 3,000 miles....
again, mileage and driving conditions is the ONLY way to accurately base a service schedule on aside from TESTING the fluids in question....hence the "change oil every 3,000 miles or 3 months" mantra.

The reason I seem to focus on the 25,000 mile number is because it is what is in the marketing of AMSOIL. Or at least that is the number I always seem to see thrown around.

On your own website you have (under "Why AMSOIL")

"Lower Cost, More Convenience
Motorists value savings. With AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, 25,000-mile/one-year oil changes save time and money. With all the added performance benefits of AMSOIL synthetics, fuel economy, reduced oil consumption and better wear protection, your savings add up every mile you are on the road. "

I see nothing in that graph about "you may need to change sooner based on oil testing".....maybe you said that elsewhere, but, that isnt in the headlines........

You know as well as I do that MANY consumers tend to buy products based on what it MIGHT be able to do for them, not what it CAN do them.

Claims like: Dexatrim - "You can lose up to 50 pounds per month like Mr. John Doe did!!" and then they follow up with the fine print "results not typical -- your results may vary"

Still, people remember the 50 pounds even if they will most likely only lose 5.

To me, saying "Our oil can last up to 25,000 miles" is the same thing. People do the quick math in their head ("Lets see, I do oil changes now every 3,000 miles...I can save 8 times the cost of one change!!! Yahhoooo!) and assume it will apply to them, and the company claiming this benefits.

You can look in the owner's manual...there are listings for fluid change intervals recommended for "scedule B" vehicles"....those that see stop and go driving,lots of hills, high temps, etc...but there are ALSO listings for longer change intervals on fluids, assuming your driving habits match those....but most folks do NOT....which is why dealers use the "schedule B" listings for everyone now.....heck, in my 2003 Durango manual, "schedule B" is listed FIRST in the manual...and "schedule A" is listed on the pages after!

You yourself said that the only way to be sure as to how ANY oil is performing in a vehicle is to do oil testing. The only other option is change oil BEFORE it wears out.

It really has nothing to do with what someone is "comfortable" with as far as when they change oil....it boils down to when the engine NEEDS the oil changed....and the only way to know for sure is oil testing.....otherwise you change oil more often than "necessary" to stay ahead of the curve.

Maybe you can get away with testing once or twice and then using those results forever.....then again, the engine changes as it gets older, so testing really should continue to be sure that the oil is getting changed when required....so add that repetitive $20/test cost to the grand scheme of things, plus the initial higher cost of the oil and you defeat the whole idea of "saving money" by using an "extended interval" oil, regardless of brand, unless you dramatically extend the intervals, which we have already discussed requires testing to validate....ok, one might save some money if they test regularly and find that the intervals can be extended for them...but if someone is looking to save time/money by extending intervals, are they going to take the time/spend the monety to test regularly??

So, now that easy/no hassle cost-savings has been eliminated, the only things left are : a) using fewer oil resources and having less waste oil to dispose of and b) less hassle due to fewer changes, neither of which I can argue...both are great benefits to having extended oil changes...but if you want to get crazy about it, consider the added hassle of testing, plus the resources required to get the testing done (the plastic vials used in collecting the samples, the truck to deleiver the sample to the testing facility, etc etc etc) and I dont know if the winner here is the environment or the oil companies.


Now, as I have said before.....I dont dispute whether or not AMSOIL is a "better" oil than any other....or that MOBIL1 that I use in my Durango is any better than the HALVOLINE synthetic I use in my other cars....Personally, I feel that the the added benefits of a synthetic oil are enough gain for spending the extra money to buy synthetics.....trying to squeez out a few more bucks per year at the risk of oil related engine problems, to me, isn't worth it...

If we take a look around our homes and at our daily habits we can probably ALL find ways to save $10-$80 a year.....like turning off the water while brushing our teeth...or not flushing the toilet until ALL members oft he family have taken their morning tinkle (ok, yuck).....Or using ONLY three squares of tissue paper .....<grin>

But it boils downs to practicality and, yes, comfort/hassle levels.

Why go thru the hassle of testing, having the worry of if the claims are true, and ordering "special" oil and such thru the mail, when similar results can be obtained by simply changing oil at the 3,000 or so mark?

Sorry to keep arguing this, Bill, but AMSOIL's red/white and blue marketing making claims of super high mileage to me is just marketing hype....Over the last several years I have seen pro-AMSOIL pundits use everything from the extended oil change intervals to not having to use foreign oil to "buy american" in their sales pitches....technically it may all be true...but just like Dexatrim "your results may vary"

When I see that AMSOIL (or any other) oil has been tested and approved for extended change intervals by the manufacturer of my vehicle, I will then have the real world proof that it can do what it claims....and more importantly, the manufacturer will have approved that change interval for warranty purposes.

DZ
 
#11 ·
AMSOIL Applauded for Extended Drain Technology

AMSOIL founder A.J. Amatuzio coined the phrase "extended drain intervals" back in 1972 with the introduction of AMSOIL 10W-40 Synthetic Motor Oil, formulated for 25,000-mile/one-year drain intervals. Not only was AMSOIL motor oil the first synthetic oil to pass American Petroleum Institute (API) service requirements, AMSOIL INC. was the only motor oil company promoting oil drains beyond 3,000 miles.

Today, motorists are still bombarded with propaganda from the major oil companies promoting 3,000-mile oil changes. However, the industry is slowly but surely coming around. Vehicle manufacturers typically suggest 5,000- to 7,500-mile intervals in their owners manuals, and many manufacturers have also started incorporating oil life monitors into their vehicles, allowing motorists to safely extend drain intervals by monitoring oil life and alerting drivers when the oil needs changing. Competing oil companies have also begun marketing their own synthetics, some claiming service lives extending beyond 3,000 miles.

Lubes-n-Greases Automotive Editor David McFall, once with the American Petroleum Institute recently tackled the issue of extended drain intervals in his March column, criticizing the standard 3,000-mile oil change and referring to the American motor oil market as "shackled."

"In Europe the average engine oil drain interval for current gasoline-fueled cars is about 10,000 miles," explains McFall. "In the United States, indicates the Automotive Oil Change Association, the average drain interval followed by most drivers is somewhat less than 5,000 miles—one-half of Europe's.

"Every year in the United States, this too-short drain interval results in the unneeded production of 300 million to 400 million gallons of engine oil; excess consumer expenditures of around $1.5 billion; and tens of millions of unnecessary oil changes."

Not only are these unnecessary oil changes an expense to consumers, explains McFall, but they have an environmental cost as well. "The added environmental cost of having an average 5,000-mile oil drain interval (instead of 10,000 miles, as in Europe) may be nearly 100 million gallons of engine oil being dumped, untreated, into the U.S. environment annually."

McFall's examination of Mobil 1, Shell and AMSOIL demonstrates the differences among companies who are shackled to the current system and one who isn't.

According to an ExxonMobil spokesperson, "Car owners should follow the oil change intervals specified by the manufacturer. We believe it is inappropriate to recommend drain intervals that may conflict with those set forth by the car manufacturer's specifications."

"Here, in a nutshell," says McFall, "is this observer's take on ExxonMobil's and the oil industry's 'owner's manual' position: It is designed solely to increase motor oil sales." He backs it up by mentioning that Mobil 1 SuperSyn motor oil claims to meet European ACEA A5 and B5-02 specifications, two specifications intended to extend oil drain intervals. "If the oil can be used in Europe for extended drain intervals, why doesn't ExxonMobil notify U.S. consumers of that capability?" asks McFall.

Although Shell Oil Products, owner of Pennzoil-Quaker State, has broken through the shackles enough to offer an API unlicensed oil specially formulated for higher mileage engines, they make no mention of a recommended drain interval, preferring instead to avoid the issue and keep consumers in the dark.

McFall marvels at the success of the independent motor oil company that offers drain intervals up to 11 times longer than the standard interval offered by conventional oils, saying, "Purists can sniff that AMSOIL's data isn't derived from a controlled field study, but the sheer mountain of vehicle miles over three decades, and the absence of any confirmed performance, wear or maintenance issues, speaks volumes."

McFall sums up his column by highlighting the true value of AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oil, stating the cost may be "two to three times higher than most retail conventional oils but if you can securely count on a 15,000- to 25,000-mile drain interval, it's a flat-out bargain, not to mention providing a clear environmental bonus."

So, what is it that allows AMSOIL motor oils to be used for extended drain intervals, while other oils must be changed significantly sooner? First, the synthetic base stocks with which AMSOIL motor oils are formulated are worlds apart in quality compared with conventional base stocks. The synthetic molecules are uniform in size and shape, resisting the vaporization that boils off the smaller molecules of conventional motor oils and leaves behind a thicker, higher viscosity oil that compromises engine protection. AMSOIL motor oils surpass even the most stringent European volatility standards, providing superior protection for extended drain intervals.

Second, AMSOIL spares no expense when it comes to additives, selecting the most robust additive packages on the market. These additives keep AMSOIL motor oils shear stable, resist the degrading effects of varnish and sludge, keep engine components clean and deposit-free and effectively resist rust, corrosion and foaming.

By using only the highest quality synthetic base stocks and additives available, AMSOIL motor oils are capable of extended drain intervals, all while maintaining performance, providing long-term wear protection and fuel economy, keeping engines clean and deposit-free, providing cold weather starts and protecting against rust and corrosion.

For a copy of David McFall's column on AMSOIL, contact Lubes-n-Greases at (703) 536-0800 or see it below in read-only PDF format.


Lubes 'n' Greases logo is a Registered Trademark of LNG Publishing Company, Inc.



Even mobil 1 claims extended drain intervals:

Directly from their website.


You don't have to change the oil as often when using Mobil 1.
While Mobil 1 has given excellent results in extended oil drain tests, ExxonMobil prefers to remain conservative with oil drain recommendations. ExxonMobil engineers recommend that you can go all the way to the maximum mileage or time frame shown in your owner's manual for oil changes when using Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™. This allows the reserve protection capabilities of Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ to cover unusual or unexpected driving conditions.


Oil change intervals can be as short as 3,000 miles or as long as 15,000 miles on some new cars. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™'s high-performance reserves can give you the confidence to go the full mileage or time frame recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ is especially suitable for the latest vehicles with extended drain intervals or vehicles with oil monitoring systems that vary oil drain intervals.

See Amsoil is not the only manufacturer who claims extended drain intervals.

More to come after work


Bill,
 
#12 ·
Boy Oh Boy:

Talk about some interesting reads. Thing is, none of this is new. The problem is the manufacturer and what they want you to do. They have the final say so. I've been using synthetics for years. I started in my 79 Luv truck. A trucker friend of mine turned me on to it. It was called Delvac. Good for 25K. That's how often I changed it.

With the D, I change the oil every 5K, and the filter every 1K. I use Mobil 1. Hopefully, if something happens to the engine, DC wil accept my oil changes. Even the Viper, which comes from the factory with synthetic oil, says to change the oil every 3K. It uses Mobil 1. So it's not what the oil companies say at all.

Later
Ugg :cool:
 
#13 · (Edited)
Hmmmm....

Well, first off, I did a search for "lube-n-grease" and found that AMSOIL and McFall's names pop up over and over, so I suspect that AMSOIL, lube-n-grease and McFall are somehow all related in one way shape or form... the article reference you posted seems to appear on many AMSOIL sales sites....including the article you posted.....Clearly the articles are biased (most things on sales sites, no matter the product) are....so either he is a AMSOIL pundit or else AMSOIL sales folks are milking his article for what its worth....

In the article, McFall says ""Here, in a nutshell," says McFall, "is this observer's take on ExxonMobil's and the oil industry's 'owner's manual' position: It is designed solely to increase motor oil sales."

Oh PUHLEASE! Again, the "big automaker conspiracy theory?? Come on, Bill...do you really belive that?? Should we all be driving vehicles that get 100mpg and can go 100k miles without any maintenance and tires that never wear out? Is it just that the automakers want us to be "shackled" to them? And all the automakers are in cahoots with the oil companies and the aftermarket companies and the tire companies?? Doesnt that seem just a tad paranoid to you???

The whole article reeks of buzzwords meant to inflame the consumer into thinking they can beat "the system".....phrases like "shackled to the system", "bombarded with propaganda ", "this too-short drain interval results in the unneeded production ", "keep consumers in the dark" and the clincher...."excess consumer expenditures of around $1.5 billion; and tens of millions of unnecessary oil changes."

"Unnecesary" by WHOSE meaasure?? Amsoil's?? The whole "story" is biased and obviously written by AMSOIL's PR dept....

The article also says: "Purists can sniff that AMSOIL's data isn't derived from a controlled field study, but the sheer mountain of vehicle miles over three decades, and the absence of any confirmed performance, wear or maintenance issues, speaks volumes."

Well, excuse me, but there are TONS of vehicles out there (I have relatives who drive them) that almost NEVER get oil changes but use regular oil and are "just fine". Problem is, those vehicles are usually used and abused and die of something other than oil related failures...so the "sheer mountain of vehicle miles" thing doesn't hold water. AMSOIL claims to not have had any vehicles come back due to an oil related issue......how many vehicles do you think go back to Mobil or any of the oil companies because of oil-related problems?? My guess is very very few.

Personally, I firmly believe that, if the vehicle is maintained well and driven responsibly, even standard oil can go longer than 3,000 miles. However, it is better to err on the side of caution, given the possible outcome.

Note that Mobil1 says in your quote "ExxonMobil engineers recommend that you can go all the way to the maximum mileage or time frame shown in your owner's manual for oil changes when using Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™. "

They recognize that the auto manufacturer IS the last word on this, IF you want to have your warranty in tact,. Period.

Nothing, said by any "expert" (a cheap title, these days, by the way that can be had simply by "publishing an online article somewhere in web space) is going to change that. If a person buys into the consiracy theory or not is not going to change that. If a person prays to the gods of oil everyday for a month or not is not going to change that.

Until that owners manual says different, the 3,000 mile oil change is in the best interest of the consumer if he/she wants an intact warranty. It doesnt matter if someone somewhere says "It is unnecessary".....

Once the warranty is up, all bets are off and anyone is free to do whatever they want.....it will be their cash needed to repair an engine IF it would need repaired due to an oil issue......

I just find it intersting that in the sales hype MASOIL uses everywhere, the 25,000 number is tossed about.....by your own suggestion, oil tetsing is the ONLY way to be sure that a particular engine can go that long....yet I dont seem to see that mentioned in the sales hype.

To me, a couple extra $40 oil changes a year is worth the peace of mind even if it is overkill......I tend to not buy in to the hype of salescompanies....I find no solace in their saying 'We say its this way'.....

We can argue this back and forth all day long...I am the eternal cynic and you are an AMSOIL salesman......obviously we have our feelings on this.....All I have to argue with is my own feelings on the issue, and you have AMSOIL's propaganda (I dont mean that negatively, but that is what it is).....as a salesman, you will want to get the last word on this, saying that AMSOIL has 'proof" or whatever to prove that this superior product does what it says it can do...

But again, facts is facts -- AT the end of the day, until the owners manual says different there is no argument for me, as I want to keep my extended warranty intact. Its a roll of the dice everyday in life and there are far too many things to worry about....geting oil tests done and trying to eek more miles out of an oil chaneg is not on the top of my agenda..... <grin>

DZ
 
#14 ·
I won't repeat the Amsoil's "hype" as you call it. I find it interesting that Amsoil has had a 1 year or 25,000 mile oil since 1972. If this oil change "hype" was such a scam that caused thousands of worn out engines, why would they be able to still advertise it without govt scrutiny or be blacklisted. Amsoil has never been sued by the FTC for false claims like Slick-50, Dura-lube etc.


Now about the oil companies ripping off the consumers.

I live in California where the gas price on average is .40 cents higher then the rest of the US. A taxpayer watchdog group who has been investigating the "big 5" oil companies here in California has noticed that all five companies work together to keep gas prices high. Here is the full article for your enjoyment: http://www.nbc4.tv/news/3023316/detail.html

I also experienced first hand (via my electric bill) the electricity shortage that was masterminded by greedy companies like Enron.

Why aren't the automanufacturers not recommending Lube control which keeps oil so clean that 10,000 mile oil changes are perfectly reasonable with petroleum. Why did they start recommending 3000 mile oil change intervals when in the past, 5000 miles was the norm? My thought is profit is the driving factor. I don't subscribe to the 100 mpg vehicles either. They have exceeded 50 mpg with hybrid cars, but I refuse to drive a "mini-car" for fear of being crushed in an accident.

I don't plan on trying to change your cynicism towards oil. I do like to share the merits of synthetic oil which we both agree on. Oil change intervals are an issue where we will have to agree to disagree. I dont focus too much on oil analysis (I didn't bother testing my oils). Some people at BITOG run 3 to 6000 mile oil change intervals and do oil testing. I think they have an obsession to run short intervals and oil testing.

I refer to oil testing results to validate my point that oil doesn't wear out in 3000 miles.

I want set everyone straight, I am a pro-business conservative but, I'm against collusion and price gouging.





Hear is a cool testimonial from a customer who buys Amsoil from one of my downline dealers. I thought I'd share it.

Barry – I just got back and calculated my fuel mileage.

On my last trip 1,692 mile trip (minimal mountains in PA) in November ’03, I averaged 8.2 mpg using Shell Rotella T 15W-40

This trip I traveled 1,978 miles (2 passes over the Blue Ridge Mountains WV & VA) and averaged 9.18 mpg, a 12% improvement using AMSOIL Series 3000 5W-30.

If the improvement remains consistent and I drive 6,000 miles this year as planned, I will save 81 gals of diesel fuel, currently $1.72/gal, or $140, which is what the AMSOIL cost me, therefore I gain better engine protection for no added cost.

My oil pressure seemed to be more stable, I didn’t need to add any make-up oil (none burned off), and the oil appearance still looks clean/fresh.

So far I’m a “happy camper” and intend to continue using AMSOIL in my Cummins 8.3L Turbo Diesel Powered RV.

I’m still contemplating adding the AMSOIL bypass filter system just to keep the oil as pure as possible and eliminate combustion water, but it may not be financially justified (with annual changes) unless I drive the RV more miles/year.

- Jeff


Here is the actual dealers ATF experience: did my & my dads ATF. On my trip to MN I averaged 15.9 mpg on my Ram quad cab 5.9L running 75 mpg. I figure that is a 2+ increase - and that goes a ways to pay for the fluid.


Good chat DZ :rck:


Bill,
 
#15 ·
Hey:

Dave and his soapbox.:D Are you a politician Dave? Are you runnin for some kinda office or somethin? You sure can take somethin that only requires a simple answer or statement and stretch it out. ;) We in America are so far behind in so much from the Europeans, but our leaders want us to think that we are ahead. We are not. They have been dealing with high fuel cost for some time now and have learned how to cut their costs. Most of the countries over there have high water tables so they have to be careful about pollution, they don't want to poison their drinking water. They're also more advanced than us in their medicines. We're about 5 years behind them.

Now your comment about all these businesses being in "Cahoots". Why not. You are obviously not familiar with the history of the American businessman. He is ruthless. He will do WHATEVER is needed to be done, and that includes killing people, joing forces with others, and even starting wars to push his product. Yes Dave, be paranoid.:rolleyes: I have no doubt that it still goes on to this day.

I used to be mid level management for an International Firm. People were just bodies to them, to be bought when needed. None of our employees were allowed to work more than 37 hours a week so they couldn't be considered full timers. They were to have NO overtime what so ever, and if they did, their supervisors were punished.

So Dave, in a nutshell :) this 3K oil change thing is just a way these guys can make more $$$$$$. They don't care about the amount of resources left. They don't care about pollution. The only thing they care about is the Bottom Line, $$$$$, Profit. The auto manufacturers go along with it cause it's a way they can make more profit too. Hey, I guess I got a soapbox too.:D

Later
Ugg :cool:
 
#16 ·
Man, are you guys paranoid! <grin>

Well, I work for a major company and I know all about rules like no overtime, etc....but it has nothing to do with "screwing" someone and everything to do with saving expenses...yes, the bottomline. Sure, they COULd pay me twice what I am makling...the CEO makes a huge salary and makes the same amount in bonuses...I make a pittance...but does that mean that he is some kind of ogre looking for world domination?? No...it is just the way it is....The folks "at the top" make the bucks...he also spends 24 hours on the job, and is never off call. He is always working. SO its a tradeoff. But has he killed anyone?? I doubt it seriously.

Yes, companies cut costs and optimize manufacturing processes and lomit employee costs, etc....

After all, a business is in business to make money.

There is a BIIIIIG difference, though, between not allowing overtime and actualy conspiring to defraud the consumer.....The two arent even close, and there is plnety of law there to prevent or at least curb that sort of thing.

As far as killing people, etc and "doing whatever needs to be done", that is true of all other types of "business men" too, regardless of origin....ever hear of the Mafia?? All originally Italian born, they came to America and set up shop.....we all are familiar with THAT "business" and how they regulated themselves....Does that mean all Italians are killers who are just after protecting their turf and income??

STereotyping all American businessmen as ruthless killers is simply silly IMHO.

You guys can believe what you want if it helps you slpeep at night....

But the facts is that businesses ARE in business to make money so yes they will optimize things to make them money if they can...however, if that is the case, why would companies like GM offer vehicles like my Malibu that have 100k mile tranny fluid changes and 100k mile radiator fluid changes (which, by the way, has proven to be a bad idea)?

COme on guys....some paranoia is healthy but the whole world aint out to get the little guy. And even if it were, we all have the opporutnity to NOT be a little guy.....

As far as my propensity to explian my point of view in detail <grin> , thanks....I'll take that as a compliment! :)

To get this back on track, again, no matter what AMSOIL claims their oil "can" do (and dont forget, AMSOIL is a company full of businessmen too -- Bill, how many people have you killed this week for business reasons :) ), until it is accepted by the manufacturer and they change their service interval requirements, its dangerous, IMHO , for any company to claim that they can overide those requirements. THAT, to me, is misleading the consumer.

DZ
 
#17 ·
Dave:

Your right, it's not only the American businessman. Dalimer-Benz was the first of the German industrialist to embrace Adolph Hitler, and Mitsubishi made the bombers that bombed Pearl Harbor and supplied the concentration camps in China that killed over 12 million people. Our government used businesses to wipe out the buffalo herds to try and wipe out the Native Americans. History is full of stories like that, and a dispoprtionate number of them were Americans.

True, not all businessmaen are like that. Actually it's just a small number on the top. It's no secret that these businesses keep records on people. Probably more comprehensive than law enforcement because they don't have the same constraints. They buy and sell these records to each other. So your boss is on call 24/7. Big deal. He gets a call, and then makes a call. It's called delegation of power. He/she doesn't have to be in the same country. Upper management thinks of ways to cut costs. What's one of the biggest costs of any company? Labor. Get the picture yet Dave?

About killing people. I don't mean that they put a gun to someone's head and pulled the trigger, although that may have happened too. I'm talkin about them gettin new equipment that was unsafe, and people dying when they used it, or how's about the old days of the railroads? How many men died layin track? It's still unknown. Yeah, there are laws now, why do ya think they were made? Do you actually think that these companies follow the laws? In most cases it's cheaper to pay the fines than to comply with the laws.

On one of my many jobs, I worked building skyscrapers. Actually, I was a scaffold erector for the stone setters. We would start at the top level at the time, slide a steel girder 6 to 8' outside the structer, bolt it to the floor, go outside to the end of the girder and bolt a plate on the underside of the girder. After we did this many times, we would run rails from girder to girder, attaching them to that plate. Then we would hang the trolly's from the rails and attach the scaffolding. While we were doin this, the building was going up around us. When we were done at that level, we would go up to the top again. Because we were at the very top, there was nothing for us to hook up to.

This was back in 83, and I was taking home over $900.00 a week for 40 hours for the height I was up to. One day OSHA showed up. I got fined for no safety equipment. I was never given any, never told about any, never knew about any, and when I asked about safety issues I was told to shut up by the forman. I also found out that there was supposed to be a safety net 2 floors below where we were working. This was my first job working up high. I was told not to worry about it as the company paid all the fines and the next day it was work as usual.

Dave, do ya remember the Pinto? Ford was aware of it's problems. They even had solutions for it, but decided it was cheaper not to add the solutions and face the possible lawsuits. See Dave, they killed people, knowingly. It's documented. The same thing goes for the toxic wastes that are being dumped into our rivers and streams, poisoning us. These companies are aware of what they are doing and what the outcome will be. But we got guys that stand up on soapboxes that say "Duh, that's just the way it is." To Blind To See, To Dumb To Question. Your right that the manufactorer has the final say so if ya want to keep your warranty intact, but they're wrong. They want more $$$$$$. If ya ask them how much is enough, they answer that there never is enough. Open your eyes Dave. Study history. Capitalism is not the great savior either. Now I'm sorry if I seem like I'm flammin ya Dave, but I just couldn't let some of your comments slide.

Now, if somebody could help me off of this soapbox.

Later
Ugg :cool:
 
#18 ·
"Your right, it's not only the American businessman. Dalimer-Benz was the first of the German industrialist to embrace Adolph Hitler, and Mitsubishi made the bombers that bombed Pearl Harbor and supplied the concentration camps in China that killed over 12 million people. Our government used businesses to wipe out the buffalo herds to try and wipe out the Native Americans. History is full of stories like that, and a dispoprtionate number of them were Americans. "

<silence>

Mitsubishi made the bombers...indeed...they are also a Japanese company and Japan declared war on us.....what does that prove?? We have companies that built the bombs that *we* use throughout the world....SO?? In any event, talking about the mechanics of war is a LITTLE different than talking about companies out to gouge consumers....


"True, not all businessmaen are like that. Actually it's just a small number on the top. It's no secret that these businesses keep records on people. Probably more comprehensive than law enforcement because they don't have the same constraints. They buy and sell these records to each other. So your boss is on call 24/7. Big deal. He gets a call, and then makes a call. It's called delegation of power. He/she doesn't have to be in the same country. Upper management thinks of ways to cut costs. What's one of the biggest costs of any company? Labor. Get the picture yet Dave? "

Ouch. Obviously you have some gripes with the upper eschelon....and I dont want to get into that....The top dogs sure do delegate tasks, but have you ever been on call 24/7?? My wife is, sometimes, at her hospital and that is a real pain.....The life of a CEO isnt all wine and roses either...they have the responsibilty of running a company so that it makes money....if it doesnt tehy are out of work by way of the BOD. They spend hours of planes every day traveling to meetings, they rarely see their families and their homes......I am not defending the CEO lifestyle...they choose it.....But I am not against CEOs just because they are people of power......Those who abuse their power, of course we should hold in contempt and try to correct.....But to say taht all top dogs are abusive to their power and that tehy all have an eye on screwing the little guys is just another stereotype.....

Suffice it to say that companies know less about their employees than you think....Otherwise, white collar crime would be non exhistant....Comanies are machines like any other organization, and yes power IS delegated....Which is why communication is so poor sometimes....But again, not sure what that has to do with gouging customers.

"About killing people. I don't mean that they put a gun to someone's head and pulled the trigger, although that may have happened too. I'm talkin about them gettin new equipment that was unsafe, and people dying when they used it, or how's about the old days of the railroads? How many men died layin track? It's still unknown. Yeah, there are laws now, why do ya think they were made? Do you actually think that these companies follow the laws? In most cases it's cheaper to pay the fines than to comply with the laws."

And even today people die due to job related factors...when the problem comes to light is is addressed....Should, in an ideal world, all companies investigate every single apsect of every single job and every singletool/procedure involved with a job?? Sure....but its not practical.....yes, money is the biggest reason.

My grandfather was 13 and working in the mines.....so I heard the stories, trust me,.....and at one time, people did what they had to do...dangerous jobs were needing to be done....and as long as there were people willing (or having no choice other than) to risk it, it was accepted. WHy did parents send their kids into the mines KNOWING full well that little Johny could die that day?? They did what they had to do.

I am not saying the companies didnt do less tahn they could have to prevent stuff like this, but I also dont think its fair to say they did it on purpose....


"when I asked about safety issues I was told to shut up by the forman. I also found out that there was supposed to be a safety net 2 floors below where we were working. This was my first job working up high. I was told not to worry about it as the company paid all the fines and the next day it was work as usual. "

Hey, I worked for a few companies that had less than stellar safety procedures in place.....And in some places, there were employees who knew the guidelines and ignored them anyways....so there is fault on both sides here, generally speaking.....

"Dave, do ya remember the Pinto? Ford was aware of it's problems. They even had solutions for it, but decided it was cheaper not to add the solutions and face the possible lawsuits. See Dave, they killed people, knowingly. It's documented."

You could make that argument for ANY vehicle issue out there...recently the Ford Crown Victoria gas tank issues , CHevy's pickup truck gas tanks issues and more recently the DUrango balljoint issues......Again, not disagreeing and I am certainly not saying it's right, but it isnt anything new to product-based companies....

"The same thing goes for the toxic wastes that are being dumped into our rivers and streams, poisoning us. These companies are aware of what they are doing and what the outcome will be."

Again, not arguing that this is a bad thing, but on the other hand, it DOES have to go somewhere, and until we all stop using product, disposal will ALWAYS be a problem and you will always have companies looking to save money and violate laws......Problem is, the same people that have the most vocal complaints about pollution, etc are usually the ones who moan the most when taxes go up to pay for the action needed to combat it.....Going after this stuff takes money too, ya know.

" But we got guys that stand up on soapboxes that say "Duh, that's just the way it is." To Blind To See, To Dumb To Question. "

"Your right that the manufactorer has the final say so if ya want to keep your warranty intact, but they're wrong. They want more $$$$$$. "

I dont think anyone here is saying "Thats the way it is".....but there has to be some reality.......on one hand we all want our warranty to be honored but we want to play by OUR rules and NOT the manufacturer's rules...THEY have teh right to make the rules because THEY are paying teh bill to fix a failed engine etc and they wat to mitigate the potential problems...so perhaps they DO advocate earlier than necessar oil changes, but they are doing it to cover THEIR butts.....Once the warranty is up, hey, you can do what you like.....no one is forcing anyone to change oil at 3,000 miles after the warranties are up...I have known people who NEVER changed their oil in 50k miles on dino oil and then sold the car....they never had a problem.......

"If ya ask them how much is enough, they answer that there never is enough."

Again, what does Daimler- Chrysler have to gain by recommending earlier than usual oil changes besides making sure they protect THEIR interests??

Would you allow someone to come into your home and start destroying furniture and then walk out and not pay the damage?? Of course not....So why should a car maker allow someone to drive a vehicel, abuse it and then expect a free fix??? If the oil change intervals are too often, THAT is the resoning behind it......
 
#19 ·
pervitizm,

Just to drop my $.02 and hope that no businessmen try to bump me off for it! :)

I like synthetics. I have been using them in my cars for the last three years. I like the peace of mind provided by knowing that I am paying for the "insurance" that synthetics buy.

Unlike some, I don't believe there are any oils that can realistically go >10K miles without needing to be changed. Let's face it, there are not any special/exclusive chemicals in the products that can account for these extended change intervals. Also, what is not mentioned is that the FILTERS still need to be changed periodically and "replacement" oil must be added. If you are going to do that, why not do an oil change?

I also subscribe to oil analysis. Especially after my in-laws had the engine in their Toyota Camry burn up due to oil sludging. They did 3-4K oil changes almost religiously. This was a design issue that Toyota has finally recognized. So much for their 7500 mile change intervals, they now strongly recommend 3K oil changes, regardless of your driving habits.

Why do domestic companies recommend 3K oil changes? Simple, they do not have the time or incentive to test with all possible oils (and there is some real garbage out there) and driving conditions to extend this. They know that with the vast majority of oils (say 95% or more) that if the oil is changed every 3K miles, they will not have oil related breakdowns within the warranty period. That is all they care about. Especially since it is almost impossible to prove that the oil was the problem. Then again, it is also very difficult to prove that engine design is the problem (ala Toyota's engines).

That is where oil analysis comes in. If you use the same oil and it its compositioin isn't changed, the oil analysis can tell you (1) the oil change interval you should use, based on your driving conditions (I recommend summer analyses because they typically represent worst case driving conditions) and (2) what the condition of your engine is in as a baseline for purposes of warranty issues (whether regular or extended warranty).

Anyway, I recommend Schaeffer's oil (http://www.schaefferoil.com/) for a couple reasons. First, it is, IMO, the most affordable of the synthetics. Second, they have been doing lubrication longer than ANY of the other companies (>150 years!). Third, they use a great deal of moly in their oils, which improve engine wear/condition over time. Finally, it is this cool green color (OK, this is a stupid reason! :)).

As for air filters, you can go with something other than paper, but I'm a bit skeptical of the gauze/foam filters for a couple reasons.

First, silica in the oil will increase (high wear compound) due to more dirt getting through. And it WILL get through. This has been documented many places. What else can be expected with gauze when you can SEE THROUGH IT? As for foam, it just won't clean out as well, IMO. If you have ever had to clean the dirt out of foam before, you will see what I mean.

Second, the claim is that you will be able to save money, but this is clearly false!

1. The filters initially cost 2-4 times as much as standard filters.
2. YOU have to clean them (time is money after all).
3. You have to pay for their "oil/clean kits" which typically cost $8-10 each (almost the cost of an air filter).
4. Will you really be willing to put up with all this maintenance for the 250K miles (~10 cleanings) it will take to recoup the total cost of the filters?

Third, the improved air flow benefit (improved hp/torque) has not been clearly proven by anyone other than the filter maker's in naturally aspirated engines. Hey, if you are racing and are constantly taking your engine apart/rebuilding it, fine. With daily drivers, I'm more skeptical. Even if they do work, you can't feel less than 5-7hp, which is more than what these filter makers claim.

Fourth, domestic OEM filters are not exactly what I would call the pinacle of engineering. Air flow is acheived by more than a more "freely flowing" material. Surface area is also important. In air filters (and oil filters for that matter), filter surface area is not the dimension of the filter, but the surface area of the media. Media surface area is increased by increasing the number of pleats (to a point).

When I changed my air filter this last time, I tried a Mann air filter. It had 50% more pleats (which were more uniformly spaced) than the OEM filter. What did I get from this? More air flow, but with the filtering ability of paper.

Anyway, the first and best idea, IMO, is to take any claims with a grain of salt... especially if they are not supported by INDEPENDENT studies (sponsored by an independent organization). The old adage, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" still is very true.

Oh, if you want a very cheap way to extend your oil change intervals, add to the oil capacity. The more oil the cooler it will stay and the longer it will take to use up the various additives. That is why big rigs have 15+ quart oil capacities. An oil cooler wouldn't hurt, but they are not cheap. :)

Anyway, there is my two bits worth (oh, I said I'd leave my $.02, didn't I, see you CAN get "something for nothing" :)). Hope you find it helpful!

Scott
 
#20 ·
I'm Ba-ack:

Had a doctors appointment to go to. Now, David, David, David. It's obvious your not a student of history and you probably just (as high pitched as I can go) got by in high school. Are you sure your not a politician? You basicly repeted what I said but left out enough to be able to put your spin on it.

Mitsubishi made the bombers...indeed...they are also a Japanese company and Japan declared war on us.....what does that prove?? We have companies that built the bombs that *we* use throughout the world....SO?? In any event, talking about the mechanics of war is a LITTLE different than talking about companies out to gouge consumers....

You left out the part about the concentration camps. Do you understand the Japanese culture at that time? There was a definate military industrial complex that live by the Bushido code or the code of the Samuri. Individuals ment nothing to them. The lives of the peasants were to be sacraficed as needed. It was an honor to die for the cause. Also, the plans for the Zero (Zeke) and the bomber (Kate) were both American design as was their attack plan on Pearl Harbor. That was originally thought up by General Billy Mitchell. He wound up being court martialed because he insisted that the Pearl was a weak spot and need better defenses from air attack. It seems our leaders were way behind the times back then too, another thing they poo-pooed was a tank design. Guess who got it? The Russians, and it became known as the T-34 Battle Tank, the best tank of WW II.

You also didn't mention the German industrialist embracing Herr Hitler and Nazism in 1934. This was before any war. But they were told of Herr Hitlers plans of conquest and his solution to the Jewish problem. This was known only to the Nazi's, not the German people. Even the German military was unaware of his solution to the Jewish problem. They were told that the Jews were to be sent to Palastine. Hitler's SS troops took care of the dirty business, and the industrialist supplied the special equipment they needed to do their job on the road and in the camps.


"True, not all businessmaen are like that. Actually it's just a small number on the top. It's no secret that these businesses keep records on people. Probably more comprehensive than law enforcement because they don't have the same constraints. They buy and sell these records to each other. So your boss is on call 24/7. Big deal. He gets a call, and then makes a call. It's called delegation of power. He/she doesn't have to be in the same country. Upper management thinks of ways to cut costs. What's one of the biggest costs of any company? Labor. Get the picture yet Dave? "

Ouch. Obviously you have some gripes with the upper eschelon....and I dont want to get into that....The top dogs sure do delegate tasks, but have you ever been on call 24/7?? My wife is, sometimes, at her hospital and that is a real pain.....The life of a CEO isnt all wine and roses either...they have the responsibilty of running a company so that it makes money....if it doesnt tehy are out of work by way of the BOD. They spend hours of planes every day traveling to meetings, they rarely see their families and their homes......I am not defending the CEO lifestyle...they choose it.....But I am not against CEOs just because they are people of power......Those who abuse their power, of course we should hold in contempt and try to correct.....But to say taht all top dogs are abusive to their power and that tehy all have an eye on screwing the little guys is just another stereotype

Well Dave, I think ya misunderstood me. I didn't mean all CEOs. I meant a small # of the top companies. Maybe ya call them MegaCompanies? Look at TYCO. The guy rents an island for his wife's B-Day. Ya didn't say anything about the record selling, how come? I wasn't sayin records of their employees, but their client base.

Suffice it to say that companies know less about their employees than you think....Otherwise, white collar crime would be non exhistant....Comanies are machines like any other organization, and yes power IS delegated....Which is why communication is so poor sometimes.

I addressed that before, labor is just bodies to them, there is no loyalty to employees. They give a shit. Ya think they'd give bennies if they didn't have to? If they could figure how to get rid of labor, they would, in a New York Second. Now again, that's not all companies thank God. The company my wife works for is real cool. They let her work at home when I went to the hospital and after I came back while I was having all those problems.


"About killing people. I don't mean that they put a gun to someone's head and pulled the trigger, although that may have happened too. I'm talkin about them gettin new equipment that was unsafe, and people dying when they used it, or how's about the old days of the railroads? How many men died layin track? It's still unknown. Yeah, there are laws now, why do ya think they were made? Do you actually think that these companies follow the laws? In most cases it's cheaper to pay the fines than to comply with the laws."

And even today people die due to job related factors...when the problem comes to light is is addressed....Should, in an ideal world, all companies investigate every single apsect of every single job and every singletool/procedure involved with a job?? Sure....but its not practical.....yes, money is the biggest reason.

My grandfather was 13 and working in the mines.....so I heard the stories, trust me,.....and at one time, people did what they had to do...dangerous jobs were needing to be done....and as long as there were people willing (or having no choice other than) to risk it, it was accepted. WHy did parents send their kids into the mines KNOWING full well that little Johny could die that day?? They did what they had to do.

The last sentance hit the nail right on the head Dave, they did what they had to do to stay alive, to survive. Times were hard then, and they're gonna get hard again. Once again, these companies (I'm not talking about all of em) have no loyalty to their employees. If people start dropin on the job, no biggy. They'll keep goin until they're told to stop by the Fed. Why do ya think the Fed got so big? That's because the local and state governments were to easy to pay off by big business and crooks. People needed protection.

I dont think anyone here is saying "Thats the way it is"..... Um, Dave, you did.


Again, what does Daimler- Chrysler have to gain by recommending earlier than usual oil changes besides making sure they protect THEIR interests??

$$$$$$$$!!!!

Would you allow someone to come into your home and start destroying furniture and then walk out and not pay the damage?? Of course not.... Where in the world, better yet, what wall did that come off of Dave?

So why should a car maker allow someone to drive a vehicel, abuse it and then expect a free fix??? If the oil change intervals are too often, THAT is the resoning behind it...... Oh, like you can read their minds, huh? Then tell me this Dave, why'd they change the D?

Now, will someone help this crotchity old man off the soapbox. please? I promise to burn it.

Later
Ugg :cool:
 
#21 ·
Good (and realistic) comments Scott...

I use the K&N in my vehicles....Not sure what you mean by being able to "see thru" gauze filters...cant do that on mine.....

The oil on the filter helps to grab more dust and dirt than any paper filter could, IMHO......back in the old days, oil bath filters were the norm....why?? Becuase they worked! WHy dont we have them now? Cause they were a PAIN to clean/change.....Nowadays, people want fast and easy...disposable paper fits that bill.....As paper filters are used, they exhibit MUCH less flow, which is the issue....

But like any other product, the manufacturers hype them and the other companies slam them...<grin> so we all have to make our own educated deicisions I guess.... :)

DZ
 
#22 ·
Great, now Im afraid to even change my oil! :rolleyes:
 
#23 ·
"It's obvious your not a student of history and you probably just (as high pitched as I can go) got by in high school. "

Garduated with a 3.75 in HS.....graduated Magana Cum Laude from college.

Next personal attack please?

"You left out the part about the concentration camps. Do you understand the Japanese culture at that time? "

Can you please explain to me WHAT concentration camps have to do with what oil we use in our Ds?? O hyeah....thats right...you are of the mindset that all the companies are out to "get" you.....and somehow that relates to concentration camps...Ok, now I'm set.

"You also didn't mention the German industrialist embracing Herr Hitler and Nazism in 1934. This was before any war. But they were told of Herr Hitlers plans of conquest and his solution to the Jewish problem. This was known only to the Nazi's, not the German people. Even the German military was unaware of his solution to the Jewish problem. They were told that the Jews were to be sent to Palastine. Hitler's SS troops took care of the dirty business, and the industrialist supplied the special equipment they needed to do their job on the road and in the camps. "

AGain, no idea how you draw the comparison between this and the topic of oil change intervals....I think its a bit of stretch.

History is full of bad guys...some of them were worse than others. But history is ALSO judged by what "side" you were on......The Japanese honeored their warriors for what they did at Pearl Harbor and probably many old timers still do....We honor our WW1 and WW2 vets for what they did (kill lots of German and Japanese soldiers)....so who is the real bad guy here?? AGain, this really doesnt relate to oil change intervals...can we get back on track?


"Well Dave, I think ya misunderstood me. I didn't mean all CEOs. I meant a small # of the top companies. Maybe ya call them MegaCompanies? Look at TYCO. The guy rents an island for his wife's B-Day. Ya didn't say anything about the record selling, how come? I wasn't sayin records of their employees, but their client base. "

So the CEO of Tyco rents an island for his wife's birthday...AND!?!? The guy has money and money brings privelege....

Compnaies have sold their client lists and info for YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS. It was actually an accepted practice until it got out of hand now everyone is up in arms over it....Yet it still happens...every time you accept a "free"gizmo for answering a short survey you buy into it...most folks dont realize that......as far as confidential info being sold, I am sure it goes on.....there are unscrupulous people in ALL industries and walks of life looking to gain advantage......But that is what money does to some folks.....

But again, what does this have to do with oil change intervals?? Oh yeah...thats right, you feel that all companies ar eare out to "get" you..... :)

"I addressed that before, labor is just bodies to them, there is no loyalty to employees. They give a shit. Ya think they'd give bennies if they didn't have to? If they could figure how to get rid of labor, they would, in a New York Second. Now again, that's not all companies thank God. The company my wife works for is real cool. They let her work at home when I went to the hospital and after I came back while I was having all those problems. "

In one sentence you basically argued your own statement.....In your setereotyping prior you have inferred that all companies are evil money suckers...but now your wife's company can be trusted?? I tend to believe there are more companies like your wife's (my company is relatively good to employees) than companies out to screw anyone....


"The last sentance hit the nail right on the head Dave, they did what they had to do to stay alive, to survive. Times were hard then, and they're gonna get hard again. Once again, these companies (I'm not talking about all of em) have no loyalty to their employees."

Ok, look at it this way....If *I* fall on hard times, should YOU have any "loyalty" to me and start sending me money to help??? I doubt it would happen.....and if so, maybe you are one of the very few who have that mentality to help anyone for anything no matter what....but at some point practicality enters into the picture.

Businesses are in business to make money. Period. Comapnies have a baseline set of things they need to do these days to attract and retain a workforce that will get the work done so they can make money. Period. The companies that go above and beyond that are more atrractive to potential employees, those that barely meet that baseline are not as attractive.....

SOme companies take advantage of employees out of greed.....no doubt this happens. Look at Enron, as you suggested....some companies will "overlook" danger for fear of having to spend money to fix problems.....some will fix the problem right away......just like some people will help their neighbor and some will walk past a drowning neighbor. Its called human nature....and yes, no matter what you do, sometimes "it just is that way". Preachers and religious folks have, for centuries, begged people to be kind to their neighbor and such.....preachers and religious folk are still in business because all people DONT subscribe to that thinking.....since companies are run by human beings, and human beings have this fault, what dfo you think the outcome will be in some cases?? This doesnt mean you shgouldnt fight it, but to act like it is something more than human nature is silly.....

"I dont think anyone here is saying "Thats the way it is"..... Um, Dave, you did."

I may have said this in regards to "If you want to keep your warranty in tact"....and yes, that IS the way it is.....If I want my warranty honored by DC, I have to abide by the rules that were in place when I bought the truck.

That doesnt mean I cant fight for changes in the oil change intervals across the baord (if I believed it made sense, which I dont agree).....


"$$$$$$$$!!!!"

Oh, thats right...when I was in Walmart the other day I say boxes and boxes of "Damiler CHrysler Engine Oil" for sale......again, I dont buy into the "all companies are in cahoots to screw the consumer BS"...thats just paranoia...but hey, top each his or her own......

I said -- "Would you allow someone to come into your home and start destroying furniture and then walk out and not pay the damage?? " and you said "Of course not.... Where in the world, better yet, what wall did that come off of Dave?".....

Well, take it out of context why dontcha.... :) the rest of the quote was

"So why should a car maker allow someone to drive a vehicel, abuse it and then expect a free fix??? If the oil change intervals are too often, THAT is the resoning behind it......"

Every auto manufacturer has some warranty on their vehicle.....during which you get a free fix to your vehicle if a failure has occured...however, since some people might NEVER change their oil if fixes were always free, the companies have to enact an across the board recommendation for oil changes that will work for ALL customers....3,000 miles is the number they settled on.....and yes, like it or not, til that changes "That is just the way it is". The comparison to the furniture/house thing is this: The same way you have locks on your doors to prevent potential thieves or vandals from coming itno your home and stealing stuff or destroying stuff, and therefore costing YOU money, the companies have rules to be followed if a customer wants free repairs under warranty...the rules are the "locks"....if you follow the rules they set forth, you have the "key" to the lock.....

Just cas you give your key to only trusted folks, companies have to trust that the folks that but their cars and follwo the rules wont try to screww THEM over....

Have you never heard of consumers faking receipts and faking stories to get a warranty honored?? Or how about the millions of dollars each year lost by the insurance companies due to people filing fraudulent claims??

It is hard to pin all the blame for what you consider "excessive oil change intervals" on companies when there are just as many consumers who are out to screw over the companies....

There is blame on bothsides....

If consumers were 100% honorable and trustworthy, maybe the auto makers WOULD extend maintenance intervals....but because so many people DO screw them, they have to put things in place to keep as much of that in cheeck as possible....

There is abuse of BOTH ends of the equation......and again, that gets back to human nature.

"Oh, like you can read their minds, huh? Then tell me this Dave, why'd they change the D?"

Lost me there....."change the D" in what way?
 
#24 ·
barkat said:
Great, now Im afraid to even change my oil! :rolleyes:
:) Me too.....I have been taking my D to the dealer for changes ( I supply the oil) to be sure I have receipts showing the changes.....engines are expensive and I cant risk having to pay for a new one.....so I want my waranty to stay intact with no questions asked...

This is exactly the main point I was making before the thread got so WAY off base....

In order to keep the warranty in tact, you hafta follow the owners manual to a T. AFter the warranty, you can do whatcha like......at TAHT point you are gonna foot the bill for any problems.....but as long as you want the manufacturer to foot the bill, you have to prove you followed THEIR rules....

Simple as that...

I change my own oil in all my other vehicles....it KILLS me to have someone else change it in my D...but it only costs me $8 more than I would have to spend on my own materials, and in return I get unquestionable documentation that it was done at the required interval so as to keep my warranty in tact. To me, its worth it.....

Thats the only point I was making in this whole mess.... :)

DZ
 
#25 ·
Dave:

Your post to Barkat is probably your alltime shortest post ever in all the forums I've seen ya post in. Amazing. What did my post have to do with motor oil? Nothing much. They were just brief history lessons on big business and how they rise above and beyond the call of duty to screw the people, both the consumer and their own employees. No, as I stated many times, not all businesses are like that. It's usually the so called Mega Companies, and not all of them either.

Here's an example dealing with motor oil. John D. Rockafeller of Standard Oil of Ohio. At the time, his was the largest oil company in the world, not only the US. In a large part due to president Teddy Roosevelt (IMO, the best president these United States ever had), Rockafeller was nailed for fixing prices, gouging, conspiracy and a few other things. He was also the reason for the anti-monopoly laws too. Now Dave, just because you have an alleged 3.75 GPA (please, ya don't need to prove it), doesn't mean you are capable of thinking freely. It just means that your able to copy and retain what was in the books you read in high school.

My experiances in universities, where I maintained a 4.0 GPA, was that the professors didn't want you to question what they said. Just follow what they said, no questions asked because you, as a student, weren't worthy to ask question of them. Follow the text. No, I wasn't in the Magna Cum Suckers but I was on the Dean's list (which I at first thought meant that I was in trouble) and I was in some kinda National Honors Society. BTW Dave, I know this has nothing to do with motor oil but, in one of my political science classes I went against what my professor had said and predicted the fall of the Berlin wall 6 months before it happened. Boy, did she give me shit for arguing with her.

Now, for your most assinine statement. "Oh, thats right...when I was in Walmart the other day I say boxes and boxes of "Damiler CHrysler Engine Oil" for sale." That's why I doubt your GPA Dave. OH, I get it now, that's just another subtle dig at me. Your posts are full of subtle digs towards people that question you. You really do understand that the dealer buys their oils and fluids in bulk in drums, right? Gee, who sells it to them? Oh yeah, DC. Who sells it to DC? OIL COMPANIES. Who makes a profit off of that? All of them. Same thing goes for the filters. When I was at the dealers yesterday I heard them quote a price of $25.00 + tax for an oil change on a Neon. That's 4 quarts of dino and a filter.

Yes Dave, people do try and screw the manufacturer and vise versa. What I'm tellin you is it's much easier for them to get us than us them simply because they have the $$$$$$ and the intent from the getgo. Some people have the intent from the getgo too, but not all. It's not a built in factor with the people as it is with most businesses. What is Planned obsolescence? Who was Tucker? Yeah, I know, what's that got to do with oil? Ya get 2 cars, identical, one here in the US, and one in Europe. These cars are from an European manufacturer. The maintenance schedule will be different.

We in the US of A are getting Bull Shitted on alot of stuff, motor oil is just one of the many things. That's why I said to you "Yes Dave, be paranoid." And again, yes, ya gotta go by what the manufacturer says to keep your warranty intact even though it's wrong, and once the warranty is up, ya can do what ya like. Or, if ya feel real strong about it beenin wrong, ya can get long winded people like Dave or me, to champion your cause.

Yeah, we've all heard about people that never changed their oil and never had any problems. Hell, one guy had over 150 K on his old Chevy. No oil changes, no lube jobs, nothing. Gave it to a friend of mine who took it to CA from Chicago and back. He even made a side trip up to Washington State. It'd probably still be runnin if a semi didn't kill it while it was parked.

WELL, THIS IS IT, I PROMISE THAT I WILL NOT MAKE ANOTHER POST ON THIS THREAD! YAY! I know, I know, ya hold me to it. :D Bad soapbox, bad.

Later
Ugg :cool:
 
#26 ·
DZ,

I'm not going to get sucked into the ongoing debate about the good/bad intentions of businesses in America other than to give you an "old saying" of mine (actually a Scott original), "American companies are successful in spite of, NOT because of, their management."

Anyway, I guess I should have been more clear about my "see right through it" statement about gauze filters (and K&N filters, indirectly). It really has two parts.

First, you can see through surgical gauze. K&N filters are made out of four to six layers of surgical gauze (http://www.knfilters.com/filtercharger.htm). This relatively low fiber density is one of the reasons why K&N claims its FILTERING ability IMPROVES over time. As the oil traps/attaches to various dirt particles, it creates a "finer mesh" of filter/dirt. Of course, this obstructs air FLOW. As Robert Heinlein would say, "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch! (TANSTAAFL!)" ;) K&N's web site is all about the air flow and HP, not about filtering.

And to think I thought these things were air FILTERS, not air FLOW-ers (heavy sarcasm! :)).

Second, after repeated cleanings (if done to K&N's specifications), the filters actually WILL become "see through" (you can see light through them). That is not exactly confidence inspiring to me when I'm trying to filter the air coming into my engine. Besides, if I want the ultimate in air flow (drags, road races, SOLO II, etc.), I can always remove my paper filter. :D

On another site, someone bought a K&N filter and, to test its filtering ability, dropped a handful of dust onto it and shook it. Dust actually fell through the filter. When trying the same thing with a paper filter, needless to say, no dust fell through.

Anyway, if you are thinking about alternative filters, try the following URL. It has an interesting side by side test and be sure to read all links:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

Oh, in an earlier post in this thread, someone indicated that they thought their new oil was really good because they got some additional mpg after switching from dino to synthetic oil. However, if you read the "fine print", you will see they went from 15w40 dino to 5w30 synthetic oil. The reduction in oil viscosity would account for the vast majority of the mpg gain. It is highly likely the same changes would have occured if the change had been to 5w30 dino oil.

Actually, the benefit of synthetics is not that they are more "slippery" than dino oils at the same viscosity rating (say 5w30), but that they will maintain their viscosity for much longer than dino oils can. This is where the extended change intervals comes from.

BTW, a beneficial oil filter improvement is to find larger filters. More filter size, means more filter media, means more oil flow. Not to mention that it will mean a nominal increase in oil capacity, slightly further increase the change interval.

Anyway, I hope some people find this thread useful. :)

Scott
 
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