Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge P200 Mail Van

Originally Posted by B-300

I'm stumped on the gaskets.

Hey Mr. B,
At this point, so am I. BUT... There are enough of these 8.75 Rear Axle Units around that I can't imagine that there aren't Gaskets out there somewhere. One just has to know what they are called to find them. Maybe the local Dodge Dealership?

I looked at an old fel-pro gasket catalog I have (1991) and didn't find any thing listed.

The Auto Zone Bearing is a Timken product. I don't know who makes the Inner and Outer Seals. BUT like I said, if worse comes to worst, those gaskets can probably be hand made.

As I recall the gasket between the housing and back-plate is a coated piece of metal. (I was able to reuse mine)

I have to agree with the "coated piece of metal". It could probably be carefully PRIED loose, cleaned and then upon re-installation given a thin coat of Form-A-Gasket on both sides, and that ought to work. That is unless one can find a new one.

The gasket between the back-plate and retainer was white foam which I also reuse. (Similar to a meat packing tray)

When I got the Retainer Plate off, there was just a thin (what appeared to be) PAPER residue, which I scraped off with a knife! And there was not much of it at all.

If they have a catalog from there supplier , tell them to look in the back pages for pictures. (You might find it there.)

Since the Inner and Outer Seals are available from Auto Zone here, I'll be asking them first. That will be later today.

As for the brake cables, I'm suprised the HAMB didn't mention to put a small hose clamp around it to squeeze tangs together so it will fit thru the back-plate.

Good idea. Another trick that a fellow on another forum said he learned from an "old Indian", is to use a 1/2" Box End Wrench to compress the Tangs, and then slip the Keeper back through the Brake Back Plate.

Because the back of the Brake Back Plate is liberally coated with decades of MUD, and I hadn't yet cleaned it off, I couldn't see if there was some other mechanism holding the Parking Brake Cable in place.

As for the collar, it must come with the bearing as I don't recall an extra part listed when I had mine done.

I'm hoping that this is so.

[/quote]Also years before that I had to do a bearing on a mustang and it came with the collar.[/quote]

Here's hoping.

Alright, here's the plan. Am going to check to see if in fact there even IS an Outer (Grease) Seal in the Adjuster. If there is, I'm going to reinstall the Right Rear Axle "AS IS", after cleaning out the Bearing Cone and re-packing it, AND putting a NEW Inner Seal in the Axle Housing.

If I find that there is NO Outer (Grease) Seal in the Adjuster, then I'm going to replace the Collar, Bearing Cup, Bearing Cone, AND Outer (Grease) Seal, after putting a NEW Inner Seal in the Axle Housing.

I'm going to follow Grandpa's First Law ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it!") with regards to the Left Rear Axle.

Anyway, it's supposed to rain tomorrow! We'll see.

Hope you are well.

JC

Hey Mr. B,
Thursday Update:

There is a saying... Something about the "Best laid plans of mice and men..."

Well, that applies here today. It was supposed to be SUNNY today, and RAIN tomorrow.

Now you'd think with all the berzillion watts of radar power that they'd be able to see heavy cloud cover, but "NOUUUUUUUUU!" (John Belushi)

So it has clouded over, threatening to rain, and so Ms. American is back under the tarp. No trip to Livingston today.

Used a small Hose Clamp to compress the tangs on the Parking Brake Cable Keeper! And it works like a champ!

The Keeper's "tangs" were compressed with a small Hose Camp just enough (except for one) to get it started through the hole, and that last tang was compressed with a pair of Needle Nosed Pliers, and with just a little fussing with it, it finally went back through the hole in the Right Rear Back Plate.

Then came the attempt to remove the Right Rear Back Plate from the Flange Studs on the Right Rear Axle Flange.

It took a bit of banging on it with a small Hammer, and it came off, though not without buggering up some of the threads on one of the Flange Studs, which are going to have to be repaired with a proper "Die"... That for those who are not familiar with the term, is the Female equivalent of a "Tap".

Nonetheless, the Right Rear Back Plate is sitting here on a table after having had at least 1/2" (in some places) worth the Differential Lubricant soaked Caliche' Mud that was caked on it removed with a Screwdriver and a Pallet Knife.

Next will come the cleaning of it with a large Wire Brush Wheel in an Electric Drill, followed by a small Wire Brush Wheel in the Craftsman RotoTool.

Once it is completely clean, it will get painted both sides with Low Gloss Black Rattle-Can Paint.

The Gasket that goes between the Right Rear Back Plate and the Axle Housing End Flange is METAL. It came off intact, and without damage. It originally had a coat of some kind of elastic material on both sides. Am going to use it as a template to make another Gasket out of some Composition Material to go between the front side of the Right Rear Back Plate and the Retainer that is on the Axle Shaft. Once THAT Gasket is made, both sides of the Metal Gasket will get a coat of NAPA Performix PLASTI DIP Multi-Purpose Rubber Coating, which will be let dry, and then the Metal Gasket will be ready for rinstallation at the proper time.

Checked on the Outer Grease Seal that is supposed to be in the Adjuster, and I'll be damned if I can tell if there is one there. The Adjuster doesn't appear to have any "radial" slop in it when trying to move it around on the Axle Shaft, so there HAS to be some kind of interior material inside it, but there is no way to see it without removing the Collar, Bearing Cone, and Bearing Cup.

Since the purpose of that Outer Grease Seal is to keep the Bearing Grease from migrating into the Brake Drum, and since the Bearing Grease is of such a viscosity that it doesn't migrate easily, there occurs this:

QUESTION: Is the function of the Outer Grease Seal of such import that it would be efficacious to replace it, seeing as to how THAT would entail the buying of a NEW Collar, a NEW Bearing Cone, a NEW Bearing Cup, and a NEW Outer Grease Seal, along with the expense of having the OLD Collar, OLD Bearing Cone, and OLD Bearing Cup removed, and the NEW components pressed on by a machine shop?

Anyway, once again the weather has put a crimp in the progress here. Am going to have to see what the forecast is to find out how long it will be inclement, not that much creedence can be put in the weather forcasts anyway.

Will be taking some more JPGs of the Keeper Mechanism that keeps the Adjuster from spinning out of adjustment, and other interesting items.

Hope you are well.

JC

But Nouuu. (They can predict the weather beater in the center of the country.) I live near the edge and there is no radar out in the ocean. Some years ago in Missouri they could predect rain to the 1/2 hr when I was there.
Anyway I found the gaskets at www.manciniracing.com in drivetrain-housing gaskets. Both types are listed for $3 each. (MRE8750933 outer, foam) and (MRE8751314 inner).
I had no luck at felpro or victorreinz. Also no luck at napaonline or autozone.
I also found one of the 3 fel-pro gaskets (fel-13800) listed at www.summitracing.com ($1.25, not sure if it's the inner or outer.) The others listed in post #40 didn't show.
As a side note, take your axle with you to be sure the bearing is the correct size as I found that some where between 69 and 71 a different bearing and seals are listed.
I agree with the if it ain't broke don't fix it (if it's loose tighten it, if it breaks it needing replacing anyway.) Just keep in mind that if it does leak it will cost a set of brake shoes unless you catch it early.
I could't really see the seal in there either on the adjuster ring side.

Originally Posted by B-300

But Nouuu. (They can predict the weather beater in the center of the country.) I live near the edge and there is no radar out in the ocean. Some years ago in Missouri they could predect rain to the 1/2 hr when I was there.

Hey Mr. B,
I live a hundred miles north of Houston, Texas, and the TV Stations in Houston are pretty good at tracking rain fall, but the MSNBC WebPage weather is somewhat less accurate with their day to day reports.

Anyway I found the gaskets at www.manciniracing.com in drivetrain-housing gaskets. Both types are listed for $3 each. (MRE8750933 outer, foam) and (MRE8751314 inner).

GREAT! I'll take a look at them.

I had no luck at felpro or victorreinz. Also no luck at napaonline or autozone.

Nor did I.

I also found one of the 3 fel-pro gaskets (fel-13800) listed at www.summitracing.com ($1.25, not sure if it's the inner or outer.) The others listed in post #40 didn't show.

I have a Summit Racing Catalog. Wonder if it's in that.

As a side note, take your axle with you to be sure the bearing is the correct size as I found that some where between 69 and 71 a different bearing and seals are listed.

Lorrie is a 67. I was already prepared to take Lorrie Right Rear Axle Shaft with me anyway. Alas, the weather is supposed to be raining for the next three days, and so I'm going to be contenting myself with cleaning parts because that can be done indoors.

I agree with the if it ain't broke don't fix it (if it's loose tighten it, if it breaks it needing replacing anyway.)

Exactly.

Just keep in mind that if it does leak it will cost a set of brake shoes unless you catch it early.

Lorrie's Right Rear Brake Shoes ARE coated with Differential Lubricant. Had a member of another forum say that they could be cleaned with Brakleen and then lightly sanded and that THAT would salvage them. What do you think about that?

I could't really see the seal in there either on the adjuster ring side.

Well, Lorrie isn't going to be getting a lot of use. She is more just going to be a Grocery Getter, with an occasional trip to the lumber yard, and for chasing down parts for Ms. American 3.14159, the ONLY 1964 Ford Galaxie, 4-Door, Hardtop, Fastback, Police Interceptor that Google finds on the WHOLE World Wide Web.

As soon as Lorrie is operational, Ms. American is going to be getting her original, rebuilt Harmonic Balancer reinstalled. She is presently running one that is a "make do/will work", but not correct HB. And at that time she will be getting her original, rebuilt Water Pump, reinstalled. And while I'm at it, I'm going to be installing the completely rebuilt/restored, Autolite 4100 C4AF-9510-DG (which is PROPER for the PI) 600 cfm Carburetor, AND the completely rebuilt/restored Heater/Defroster Unit will be getting plumbed with the proper&correct 5/8" Ribbed Heater Hose w/ White Stripe. There is also some amount of interior work necessary on Ms. American: Headliner, Seat Covers, Window Gaskets, and work on the Window Regulators. Eventually there is a new paint job in store for her also, but that will come AFTER some of the "body cancer" places are remedied. She also needs her Hood Hinges repaired. It's a NEVER ENDING litany of details that while they are a PITA, are nonetheless enjoyable to deal with, as all this is stuff that I LIKE doing. This is what I wanted to do when I was younger, but was unable to do because of having to deal with all the things that life demanded of me. I'm now retired, live simply, and can just about do ONLY that which I WANT to do.

Anyway, the cleaning and painting of Lorrie's Right Rear Brake Back Plate is going to be today's project. I noted one thing... The Right Rear, and Left Rear Back Plates are identical except for the hole for the Parking Brake Cable. Pretty slick.

There are plans afoot here to build an enclosure over the Driveway around the end of the year holidays, thus making a Garage in which to work. And one of the things that is going to be done is to make a "Pit" in which to work UNDER the vehicles. I'm looking forward to cleaning the underside of both Lorrie, and Ms. American.

This enclosure will also be a place where proper painting can be done. I'm planning on living another couple of decades, and being mobile enough for one of those two decades to do all this kind of stuff. So before I shed this "mortal coil" it is hoped that both Ms. American and Lorrie Van Haul will be in tip top shape, and a treasure to those to whom I plan on burdening with their possession. It's the best I can do for them.

Anyway, your efforts in finding the Gaskets is greatly appreciated. It's GREAT to have someone who is familiar with Lorrie's type with whom to communicate.

QUESTION: I have the Metal Gasket that was between the Right Rear Axle Housing End Flange, and the Right Rear Brake Back Plate. Wouldn't it be possible to reinstall it with "Form-A-Gasket" on both sides of it, or possibly coating it with Plasti-Dip before installation, and have it work as well as a NEW Gasket?

QUESTION: Couldn't I also MAKE the Gasket that goes between the inside of the Right Rear Brake Back Plate and the Axle Shaft Retainer out of some suitable Gasket Material using the Metal Gasket as a template?

I have the expertise to do both of those things, AND kind of LIKE the idea of doing those kinds of things just for the satisfaction of doing them. I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Anyway, Lorrie is now sitting on four Jack Stands and has some clean Terry Cloth Washrags stuffed into the end of her Right Rear Axle Housing. When I go to get the Seals (when this next spate of rain is over), I'm going to obtain the proper tool to remove the Inner Oil Seal (a Slide Hammer?) from the Axle Housing, AND a Dial Indicator with which to set the End Play. One of the mechanics on another forum said that it has been his experience that the Factory Specification of 0.013" - 0.023" is a bit "loose" and that it wouldn't hurt to set it at 0.010. Your take on this?

Well, it's time for my piano and guitar practice.

Hope this finds YOU doing well. Thanks for the responses,

JC

I would use re-use the metal gasket that you salvaged with plasti-dip, then with form-a-gasket. I wouldn't use fiber here as I believe the rational behind metal is that the brake backplate would wear it thru because of the rotational torque from applying the brakes. (could be wrong.)
I see no reason the outer seal couldn't be replaced with fiber.
I would try the brake cleaner and sanding method on the contaminated shoes. I did it and it worked for me, it took a while for all of the oil to come out (~1000 miles).
I would stay on the tight side of spec for adustment. As I said before, I think the looseness is because on a long-hall trip the internals (axles) will become warmer than the housing and expand more than the housing thus reducing the clearance. (Don't forget both are about 55" so were talking about the difference in expansion of alot of material.)
And excuuuuuse me for just figuring out 3.141592654 (etc.) = PI. (I was thinking about coils on brake tubing at the time.)

Hey All,
Friday Update:

Cleaned the front and back of the Lorrie's Right Rear Brake Back Plate. It is ready to be wiped down with solvent, dried, primer applied, and then painted low gloss Black on the back side, and gloss Black on the front side.

The first JPG is what the Front Side looks like at this point:



The JPG is what the Back Side looks like at this point:



The cleaning involved scraping all the mud, grime, and etc. off with a Screwdriver, Exacto No.11 Blade and a Pallet Knife. It was then soaked in hot water and detergent, and scoured with a wire brush and Scotch Bright pads. It was then dried and given a going over with a Wire Brush Wheel in an Electric Drill. It was then detailed using a small Wire Brush Wheel in a Craftsman RotoTool. It came out looking pretty nice. It is nicely textured.

Will get JPGs of it when painted.

JC

Originally Posted by B-300

I would use re-use the metal gasket that you salvaged with plasti-dip, then with form-a-gasket.

Hey Mr. B,
Alright. After all, can't be TOO careful. Nothing exceeds like excess!

I wouldn't use fiber here as I believe the rational behind metal is that the brake backplate would wear it thru because of the rotational torque from applying the brakes. (could be wrong.)

I wasn't thinking of using fiber for the Inner Gasket.

I see no reason the outer seal couldn't be replaced with fiber.

And so it shall be.

I would try the brake cleaner and sanding method on the contaminated shoes. I did it and it worked for me, it took a while for all of the oil to come out (~1000 miles).

The shoes are fairly young. Looked at them carefully. They could probably be taken to a place that turns Drums and ground to fit the Drum, and that would remove the lubricant from the surface. But will clean them first with Brakleen.

I would stay on the tight side of spec for adustment. As I said before, I think the looseness is because on a long-hall trip the internals (axles) will become warmer than the housing and expand more than the housing thus reducing the clearance. (Don't forget both are about 55" so were talking about the difference in expansion of alot of material.)

Good thinking. One never knows when one will have to haul something for some distance. I'll set them to 0.013.

And excuuuuuse me for just figuring out 3.141592654 (etc.) = PI. (I was thinking about coils on brake tubing at the time.)

I always get a kick out of the reaction to the 3.14159 part of the Galaxie's name. One guy wrote asking about it, and as a PS to his post, he said: "Oh I just got it just by asking about it."

But did you get the REST of it? Remember the song by Don McLean: "The Day The Music Died", where there is a line in the refrain that goes "Bye, bye Ms. American Pie"? So the Galaxie's name is Ms. American PI.

I'll never sell her, but to whomever I leave her when I die can, if he decides to sell her, advertise her as "Buy Buy Ms. American 3.14159".

Anyway, as you can see, by my previous post, I got Lorrie's Right Rear Brake Back Plate cleaned and ready for painting. Alas, the Left rear is only going to get the Front Side Cleaned like that, as it takes taking it off to do it, and it is not going to be coming off.

It was supposed to be nice day before last, and it wasn't. Then today it was supposed to rain and it didn't. I'm beginning to think that the weather people are using the "Dart Board" method of forecasting!

Anyway, thanks for the response. We seem to on the same page about the Gaskets.

JC

Drove my chevy to the levie and the levie was dry. Maybe this is how the weather persons are working. (It's wet out with a chance of more rain.)
Back in my VW days I read John muirs' (spelling?) book "How to repair your VW for the complete idiot" and he suggesting soaking brake shoes with colman fuel and light them a blaze to degrease them. His idea was the least you would be out was the fuel if the bonding failed. I personally wouldn't do this.
Because your shoes are relatively new they probably haven't soaked up much oil.

Originally Posted by B-300

Drove my chevy to the levie and the levie was dry. Maybe this is how the weather persons are working. (It's wet out with a chance of more rain.)

Hey Mr. B,
I sometimes have to laugh at what the weather people say. The other day they were lamenting the fact that we are in a drought, followed by flood warnings!

Back in my VW days I read John muirs' (spelling?) book "How to repair your VW for the complete idiot" and he suggesting soaking brake shoes with colman fuel and light them a blaze to degrease them. His idea was the least you would be out was the fuel if the bonding failed. I personally wouldn't do this.

This doesn't seem to be a too tightly wrapped thing! You once had VWs? Back in the middle 60s, I had two VW KGs, a Beetle, and a Van. They were all nice cars. Fun to drive, economical, and all in all quite servicable. I sometimes wish I had all those cars again. I've had some really unusual vehicles over the years. They weren't all THAT back then, but NOW... They'd be treasures.

Because your shoes are relatively new they probably haven't soaked up much oil.

I don't know how long the Right Rear Inner Oil Seal had been leaking, but I noticed it just before Lorrie was let lapse into her fourteen year coma. I hadn't noticed it leaking BEFORE then, but then again, I wasn't looking for it. BTW, since becoming aware of the End Play Adjustment thing, I can look back and see that Lorrie's Right Rear Axle was QUITE loose. Like it was moving a good 3/32".

Anyway, it's raining here. Supposed to be over later today, and then sunny for Sunday and Monday. Am going to start the painting of the Right Rear Brake Back Plate today.

Then Monday try to get to Auto Zone in Livingston, Texas to order (or get if they have them), two Rear Wheel Cylinder Rebuild Kits, the Right Rear Inner Oil Seal, an Inner Oil Seal Puller Tool (Slide Hammer?), and I need a good Caliper. Am also going to return the two Grease Cups that I got from NAPA as they are 3/32" too big. Will take the OLD ones to see if AZ has the proper size.

Also, will go to Lowe's an get their "Paint Remover" tool. It is an abrasive wheel that is used with an electric drill. Am going to try to remove the paint from Lorrie's Wagon Wheels which has places where the paint came off and the metal rusted, or vice versa. Once they are all cleaned off, they'll get repainted. Two of Lorrie's tires are fine. Will need to get two NEW tires though.

So things are moving at a leisurely implacable pace here. Am just enjoying messing with everything.

Hope you are well.

JC