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97B2500CCV
 
  Getting ready to try a HHO kit. - Posted: 10-12-2009, 09:50 PM
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Post #1

Been doing a lot of reading regarding the HHO theory. My boss bought two kits and I am putting one on my van then the other on his truck. I did get to see a truck with the kit on and running. It had a 6.4L and used two of the kits. Seems to work well and gets him about 24% increase, he and the company owner are tweaking it still to gain even more. The company whom developed the kit is less than 2 hours from me.

My question, is anyone running a HHO kit, or has before, and if so what was your impression of the kit and results?
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.


Last edited by 97B2500CCV : 10-12-2009 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Spelling corretions
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alloro
 
 Posted: 10-12-2009, 09:59 PM
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Post #2

I don't because it seems a bit too much like snake oil to me. However, I would be interested to learn differently if your results are positive.
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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-12-2009, 10:12 PM
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Post #3

BTW, here is the website of the company whom the kits I am working with are from:
http://www.hfuelsolutions.com/
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.

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landyacht318
 
 Posted: 10-13-2009, 01:39 AM
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Post #4

I would also like to know if your results are positive. I saw something on 20/20, or 60 minutes / 48 hours where they determined that the particular vendor of hydrogen injection systems was a scam artist. They had a unit professionally installed and then had it tested by a pro, and they found a decrease in economy and poor driveability.

I've read posts on other websites about this topic, and the general consensus is that is still takes more energy to crack hydrogen from water, than you get by burning it.

Along the lines of alternative energy sources, or engine designs, google massive yet tiny engine. Interesting and exiting read, then one sees that nothing has been updated for over 3 years despite all the promise of an alternator sized engine with 400 horsepower.
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stev
 
 Posted: 10-13-2009, 09:58 PM
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Post #5

GM has been working on a Fuel Cell program now for almost 15+ years in Honeyeye Falls, NY. They have made progress, but nothing to put into vehicles commercially. The technology mainly works in ideal conditions. Beyond that, a decrease in mpg happens vs fossil fuels. I've once worked with that GM group a little while ago.

GM has focused more on the VOLT platform instead.

Do keep us posted on your learnings. If this company has the golden staff, they will be so far ahead of the race in this technology.
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TimFrentz
 
  HHO testor Group - Posted: 10-14-2009, 07:37 PM
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Post #6

For all of those reading this post. Please send me and email and I will share some insider test results. A group of mechanics, farmers, and energy enthusiasts all got together on a yahoo group and we share our test results and project improvements.

My current stance on the HHO units is that the right design has improved my 94 Dodge Ram Van 40% and my Diesel MB 300TD without causing major conflicts. I apparently have a bad PCM unit in the Van which I am trying to replace and then will be able to get back to adding more updates after that.

As a board member of the Nebraska Green Fuels Co-op which supports this yahoo group, I strongly recommend our product sales only be installed on secondary or back up vehicles with minimal electrical components and sensors as a precaution. But other then that, they do work great on older vehicles.

Regards,

tfrentz@hotmail.com
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B-300
 
 Posted: 10-15-2009, 09:51 PM
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Post #7

FYI. During the last gas price spike there was a lot of data and use in the 3rd gen truck forum (Hemi trucks).
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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-17-2009, 08:25 PM
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Post #8

I have started on the installation this evening. I have the generator, reservoir and filter trap installed. Will do the electrical tomorrow and try to finish the pluming also. I do have to go to the local lumber yard and pick up 2 or 3 more parts.
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.

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alloro
 
 Posted: 10-18-2009, 01:28 PM
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Post #9

I hope you're taking pictures. It will be interesting to see how you did this through the various steps.
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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-18-2009, 11:29 PM
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Post #10

Here are some pics of the filter trap, reservoir, and the HHO generator. Did not get to finish it today, will try this week or weekend.

The Generator

The filter trap. The red cap is the one that I will plumb into the air cleaner once I get a different part for it.


The reservoir I attached to the coolant bottle with some very heavy duty zip ties.


There is an opening (will get the photo later) by the steering box which is where I am routing the lines and wires through.
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.

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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-20-2009, 08:45 PM
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Post #11

Plumbing is finished. Now need some daylight and time to do the electrical.

Fitting into air cleaner.



Routing of the final line connecting up to the filter.

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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.

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B-300
 
 Posted: 10-21-2009, 12:13 PM
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Post #12

What most of the 3rd gen truck guys were doing was feeding most of the HHO into a tee on the brake boosterand some upstream to the air filter housing. They used harware parts to build there generators (Water filter housings for most) with sodium peroxide (Drano) as a catalyst (corrosive).
This meant the H2 and 0 were both sent into the engine and never seperated.
They also fiddled with 02 extenders and modified MAP sensor signals. When I asked if there improvement could be just those mods there were no replies. Also they didn't take into account the cost of drano or other catalyst.
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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-21-2009, 05:58 PM
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Post #13

B-300 thank you for the reference. I have looked into the thread in the 3rd generation ram trucks. Seems they left off after the gas prices started dropping last year.

With my understanding of the PCM systems I do not see how adjusting the MAP or MAF sensors would help in adjusting the fuel trim with the HHO being added. The MAP/MAF sensors are reading the density (how heavy/light the air is) of the air charge which does help the computer adjust the fuel trim but the HHO does not change the density of the air charge.

The EFIE (Electronic Fuel Injection Enhancer) attached to the O2 sensor(s) I do understand for the 02 Sensor(s) are what has the final say in the fuel trim. Adjusting what the computer sees from the 02's will affect the fuel economy. By being able to trim back the fuel compared to the HHO being added then the gas mileage goes up, which is what we want. The EFIE being able to alter the signal that the PCM sees helps to compensate for the extra oxygen atoms that end up in the cylinders. On some vehicles with out adding the EFIE to the 02 sensors then the computer sees extra oxygen and adds more fuel which lowers the fuel economy from the added HHO.

Regarding the question of just using the sensor manipulation a person would be able to trim down the fuel usage by just adding the EFIE but increasing the fuel mileage that way will cause the engine to run to lean and cause it to knock/ping, there by shortening the engines life. I have seen advertising of some PCM program tuners that claim to increase HP and fuel economy by just changing the program. I have not seen one personally nor have I heard from some one doing that to their vehicle.
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.

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B-300
 
 Posted: 10-21-2009, 09:59 PM
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Post #14

By adding HHO to the manifold it's downstream of the throttle valve and therefore not seen by the TPS. The fuel mixture shouldn't be off much as the HH and O that were seperated combine perfectly (H2O) it's the catalyst that could change the fuel-air ratio.
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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-21-2009, 10:39 PM
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Post #15

I will double check on my magnum engine, I think the brake booster hose does go into the base of the TB.

Not understanding about the TPS seeing the HHO. All the TPS sees is how much the throttle plate is open meaning how much RPM speed (power) is desired by the driver. By feeding the HHO through the air cleaner it will follow the rest of the air charge either through the throttle plates or through the IAC during engine idle.

Feeding the HHO through the base of the throttle body does by pass the MAP sensor. Not sure it would be a better place to feed the HHO gas in. May try it latter and see.
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.

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B-300
 
 Posted: 10-23-2009, 10:59 AM
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Post #16

Exactly. If the HHO is injected downstream of the throttle plates it's as if extra fuel and air is being added there. It will cause the PCM to close the IAC more to maintain correct idle speed.
It would seem to be best to inject above the throttle plates however the PCM calulate this as air only and add extra fuel even though both are present. ( HH = fuel, O = correctly proportioned oxidizer.) Just like the space shuttle uses after the solid boosters.
I would seal the connection at the intake snorkle or inject into the air filter housing, inside the air filter. (Hydrogen is the smallect atom and will leak anywere it can.)
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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-23-2009, 10:21 PM
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Post #17

Today I now have the installation done. Waiting on the sealant to dry and will put in the electrolyte and fuse in tomorrow. Here are some more pics.

Generator with electrical connections and some rubber hose added as anti chaffing.


The opening above the steering box. The HHO generator ground is at the lower right.


I installed a screw and nut on the PDC cover for the relay.


The Generator Relay with the wiring attached. The little blue wire splice connector at the bottom of the pic is tied into the fuel pump wire aft of the fuel pump relay. This way when the PCM activates the fuel pump it also activates the HHO generator.



Fuse holder (covered for tonight) with the new battery terminals and wire I also installed.


I am looking forward to testing the system. Will be putting about 75 to 100 miles on it on Monday. Will post the results.
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.


Last edited by 97B2500CCV : 10-24-2009 at 06:58 PM.
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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-23-2009, 10:32 PM
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Post #18

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-300 View Post
Exactly. If the HHO is injected downstream of the throttle plates it's as if extra fuel and air is being added there. It will cause the PCM to close the IAC more to maintain correct idle speed.
It would seem to be best to inject above the throttle plates however the PCM calulate this as air only and add extra fuel even though both are present. ( HH = fuel, O = correctly proportioned oxidizer.) Just like the space shuttle uses after the solid boosters.
I would seal the connection at the intake snorkle or inject into the air filter housing, inside the air filter. (Hydrogen is the smallect atom and will leak anywere it can.)
Thank you for your input. You have given me some things to think about. As I said above I may end up moving or at the least testing the TB base. For right now I am going to use the current setup in the snorkel. I will talk with the owner of the company whom makes this kit some time this coming week and discuss with him about moving to the base of the TB and or through the brake booster vacuum line. So far I believe all the current setups are just before the throttle plates, I don't know if he has tried to go through the base of the throttle body's.
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.

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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-24-2009, 06:55 PM
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Post #19

Tweaked the install just a little. Here are the pics from today.

Added an amp meter to see how much current the generator is pulling.


Covering of the relay wiring with electrical tape and convolute wire cover.



And the amp meter showing showing about 8 1/2 amps draw while the engine is running.
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.

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97B2500CCV
 
 Posted: 10-24-2009, 07:04 PM
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Post #20

B-300 I did check with the company owner and he does not recommend putting the connection at the base of the TB or in line with the Brake booster vacuum hose. His testing on a few vehicles had rough idling. I will probably in a few weeks set up a way to test it out myself.
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1977 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 5.0L, TH200, 2.56:1, 106K miles, 37 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1989 GMC Sierra Extended Cab 5.7L, 5 Speed, 3.08:1, 327K miles, 0 Lifetime Warranty Parts.
1997 Dodge Ram B2500, 5.2L, 36RH, 3.21:1, 377K miles, 33 Lifetime Warranty Parts.

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