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318 engine died suddenly, cranks ok; no start...

114K views 31 replies 8 participants last post by  RamVanMan 
#1 ·
Our 1996 Ram Van 2500 - 318 - 5.2 l just died suddenly.

Pulling out of the driveway - just boom, (it had been idling for maybe 2 minutes, totally normally), then just shut down like a switch was thrown.

I put it into park, it cranked just fine - no overt electrical outage, just cranked & cranked like it wasn't even thinking of starting.

So that's where we are now. :ugh

I'm just thankful it happened it my driveway, not on the side of the road many miles from home.

I did get the list of things to check:

1) Is there Spark or Fuel ?

2) Check: PCM ground or function, ASD relay (what does this do ?), fuel pump relay, ignition switch, pick up coil (same as engine coil ?) crank sensor, distributor cam.

Did I miss anything ? Appreciate help from anyone .....:secret2:


Best Regards, David / Ram Van Man
 
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#2 ·
Dave,

I have had the same problem with my 2001 Ram conversion van 1500 318 CI Engine. I have replaced the Ing Coil, Crank Sensor, Pickup Coil/Cam Sensor, Cap and Rotor. I have Checked voltage coming into all these parts and they are good. There is still no spark coming out of the coil though. I also checked the Ing Coil Ground to the PCM to make sure there is no short and there is not. the only thing I can think it could be the PCM. My Engine just shut off on the Freeway and Ill it does is Crank. The code I get from the odometer is p0351. Good Luck on your hopefully someone will come up with and answer for both of us.

Marty
 
#4 ·
Back to you Marty, thanks....



Marty, I appreciate your input - and sorry to hear of your troubles. Same boat, it sounds like !

I'll try the relay swap - it can help eliminate one cause anyhow.

Do I understand that the ASD (auto shut down) relay COULD be bad itself, or it could be seeing a bad signal / no voltage from either the crank sensor or cam sensor (in distributor), and thus doing it's job and shutting down the fuel pump ?

Please correct me if this is incorrect. I read about 50 threads...late last night on the Van & Truck forums, and this 'sudden death' problem is quite common - but has various causes.

In a couple of instances, guys found it to be the pcm / ecu engine computer. In just as many cases, guys replaced it (at around $ 400 - yikes), and found it was some other lesser cause.

I don't know if the 'key dance' routine works on my 1996 B-2500 - is it ON & OFF cycle it three times, leave ON then code appears ? My year lacks the digital Odometer, so it must display some other way......

Thanks for your input, maybe we can solve these problems together.......

Best Regards, David / Ram Van Man
 
#5 ·
I did get the list of things to check:

1) Is there Spark or Fuel ?

2) Check: PCM ground or function, ASD relay (what does this do ?), fuel pump relay, ignition switch, pick up coil (same as engine coil ?) crank sensor, distributor cam.

Did I miss anything ? Appreciate help from anyone
Posting the answers to these question would be a positive start.

The key dance doesn't work for 96 models, you will need to use a scanner to check for codes. Of course codes would be helpful if there are any.
 
#10 ·
Back with more observations.....



Ok, did some checking, observations:

1) No fuel pump noise upon keying ignition - appears to be non-functional

2) Tried switching AC with ASD relays; no changes.

3) No smell of gasoline at exhaust pipe when cranking

Next, I plan to pull the doghouse, check for spark, distributor rotation - if so, it must be fuel pump.

I've not taken loose the fuel pump hose at the injection rail area. Any special considerations ?

thanks, anyone for advice,

David / Ram Van Man
 
#6 ·
I have Fuel pumping and voltage coming into all those parts. My thread on this site. Another guy told me to now check the Crank sensor neg wire to the pcm to see if that is bad. I will try in a few. I was just at advance auto parts my PCM is 135 Dollars but it has to be flashed so it will be a week if I order it tomorrow. My old 97 neon If you did the 3 crank on the key you need to count the "Rings" of the door open bell it will ring pause, ring pause ring pause then just write down the numbers for each set of bell rings
 
#7 ·
Pop the dist. cap and see if the rotor turns when cranking. If not it has broke timing chain or stripped teeth off the cam gear.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll be sure to check them asap, and report back.....

David / Ram Van Man
 
#11 ·
Do check for spark as well, but I would be by trying to force the fuel pump issue.

First try banging on the bottom of the tank with the key on. Sometimes this allows them to work for a little while longer and is an instant diagnosis if it works. Some have applied 12 volts directly to the FP plug at the tank. Some just jump the fatter wires on the ASD relay. Some just drop and replace the fuel pump without being sure.

Swapping relays won'y have any effect if they are not being powered by the ECM/PCM, or if the Fuel pump is inop.

You can also get a can of TB or carb cleaner and see if you can start the van when spraying that down the intake.
 
#12 ·
On the 96 and 97 vans the key dance does work but the information will be limited to the older (OBD-I) two digit codes through the flashing of the check engine lamp. If the code for the lamp is not compatible with the older ones I do not think it will flash the lamp. An example would the the P0420 "catalytic efficiency below minimum threshold".
 
#13 ·
Also swap the fuel pump relay with the starter relay and see if the fuel pump comes on.

Check in the PDC (Power Distribution Center) box for a bad fuel pump fuse.
 
#14 ·
thanks, observations & more questions.....



I checked all fuses; fine. I did the relay swapping as you said, and no apparent change.

Couple of hours later, I sprayed starting fluid down the intake, and it started. It idled fine for 3-5 minutes. I shut it down, and then keyed it - my son said: "I hear the fuel pump running..."

So we set off on a test drive (doghouse off-hot !) and it ran 1/2 mile, then quit, just died. Checked for fuel pump noise - nothing.

Came back with starting fluid (after a 40 minute walk & return), (& tow rope !), it started, drove back .25 miles, quit again & had to tow home.

So, we appear to have intermittent fuel pump operation, ideas.......thanks for any advice,

David
 
#16 ·
When my fuel pump failed, and after I replaced it, I kept the old one, and would put 12 volts to it. Sometimes it would buzz, sometimes not. If I flicked it with a finger a couple times, it would buzz away happily, for 30 seconds or so, then quit, and would not restart until it cooled down completely, flicked or not.

While you could still have an electrical issue leading to the pump, I'd say it is way more likely the pump is simply failing.

Try rocking the van around to slosh the fuel around and cool the pump, then banging hard on the tank those times when it quits.
 
#17 ·
OK pull the fuel pump relay out and look at the bottom or side of it for a diagram. Then find where Pin 30 and 87 are, then make a small jumper wire with the blade type crimp on connectors and plug in to the slots where pin 87 and 30 of the relay would on the PDC board. This will jump power to the fuel pump. See if the pump will continue to run, it will do this even with the key not in the ignition. If the pump still shuts down on its own then either the pump is bad or the wiring to it. My bet will be the pump is failing.
 
#18 ·
OK guys, I've been digging into this no start or engine shuts off randomly for two weeks now. Over at the Dakota forums I found this mentioned by a Chrysler tech.

"There is a check valve in the fuel pump that goes bad and those are the exact symptoms. What happens is that the check valve can no longer hold the fuel up to the injectors and it drains back to the tank. When you go out in the morning and try to start it there is no fuel in the lines and it takes a little longer to build up the pressure. Crank-crank-crank-crank-crank and maybe it will start. Good thing is that you do not have to replace the whole pump module. There is a brass colored oval filter/regulator on the top of the fuel pump, this is where the check valve is. The bad thing is you have to drop the tank in order to replace it.

You need to buy the filter/regulator. The local parts store probably won't have one but the dealer should know what you are talking about."
 
#19 ·
Hi David,

I had a similar problem with our 1996 van with the 5.2/318. Seems like there's a time-delay internal to the fuel pump check valve that tells it to self-destruct!

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286499

I'd suggest that you replace the entire fuel pump, and not just the check valve. It's a major PITA dropping the fuel tank, and you may as well replace the entire assembly while the fuel tank is down.

Tom
 
#20 ·
Gentlemen: Thanks for the gold mine of advice. So many leads to follow up on....

Alloro: Your comment suggests there is a pressure - schrader type or whatnot - valve onto which I can mount a fuel pressure gauge, correct ?

The starting fluid worked yesterday, but only sometimes - which makes me wonder if we have an electrical glitch thing going on here - intermittent ignition spark ?

Could an incorrectly functioning PCM / ECU be sending 'shut-down' signals to either the ignition or the fuel pump ? OR could the PCM be working fine, but getting a 'shut-down' signal from a malfunctioning crank or cam sensor, making it appear like the Ignition or Fuel pump is defective ?

LYacht318: You may be right, I'll do what 97B2500CCV said and try to jump the terminals on the relay slots in the PDC to check pump operation....

Stev: Great job of research. Grand idea. But: if you had the job of dropping the whole tank, would you opt to PAY Dodge whatever they get for that 'regulator' (really a check valve & filter assy, it seems), and hope the whole pump keeps going, or having the Lifetime Warranty pump just switch out the whole unit ? I am super curious to see if that filer is clogged or whatnot. This could explain why for the past approx 3 months / 10 k miles I sensed a kind of slight gurgle or roughness at idle, if the check valve / regulator was failing to keep fuel pressure regular & consistent.

Bonus question: Could driving on a clogged catalytic converter for many miles or months cause enough back pressure or resistance on the fuel delivery end of things, causing premature failure of this regulator ? Hmmmm......

Tom: I'll read that thread right now. From your comment, it sounds like what Stev has mentioned......
maybe this is why Dodge fuel pumps seem so trouble prone & short lived ???

tried the Key Dance routine - it showed nothing, no 'check engine' light ever showed.

When the fuel pump slowly lost life last time, the engine sputtered & popped a lot, and set off the 'check engine' light numerous times. Apparently, this type of pump failure (if indeed that's what it IS...) isn't picked up by the diagnostic algorithm.

At the risk of being redundant, the prime question is still:

Could an incorrectly functioning PCM / ECU be sending 'shut-down' signals to either the ignition or the fuel pump ? OR could the PCM be working fine, but getting a 'shut-down' signal from a malfunctioning crank or cam sensor, making it appear like the Ignition or Fuel pump is defective ?

I don't relish pulling the tank & fiddling with the fuel pump if I can avoid it. The tank is nearly full - lots of gas to deal with !!

I'm glad I got the fuel pump with the Lifetime Warranty from Advance Auto Parts, in any case.

And guys thanks for all your input & advice. You're appreciated more than you could know !

David / Ram Van Man
 
#21 ·
I can't answer your PCM-related questions as they are beyond my experience level. But I'd bet you have a fuel pump that's on its way to the parts heap. When our fuel pump died we didn't get any codes. But I feel your pain. If it makes you feel any better, our fuel pump also died shortly after I filled the gas tank. It's all part of a program to make repairs as difficult as possible.

To check the fuel pump pressure: There's a Schrader-type valve on the driver's side of the fuel rail---towards the rear of the engine. At least that's where it is on our engine.

I looked at the fuel pump filter screen when the new fuel pump was installed. It looked fine---no crud; nothing even close to any kind of blockage.

Funny you mentioned a clogged catcon, because our catcon recently failed at about 110,000 miles. But this happened well after our fuel pump died, so I don't think the two failures are related. The dead/dying catcon had the familar "rocks in a tin can" rattle, but never threw any codes. The only clues I had about the bad catcon were the tin-can rattles, and a slightly rough idle. But I don't see how a clogged/bad catcon would cause a fuel pump check valve (or fuel pump) to go south.
 
#22 ·
Stev & all:

I did check - the Dodge dealer has this OEM only, internal check valve / filter assembly. Price
$ 36.95, special order.

Ya still gotta pull the whole tank. And I'm still wondering if some other more primary cause is shutting down the fuel pump.

If it WAS a bad crank sensor, cam sensor or the PCM / ECU itself, would I see 'check engine' lights ?

Odd thing is, I see no indicator. Does an OBD scan tool show codes, even if dash indicator doesn't ?

Regards, David / Ram Van Man
 
#23 ·
The check engine lamp will be in the fuel/coolant temp gage at the bottom center. If the lamp does not come on then the bulb may be burnt.

Yes a code scanner can still pull the codes if there are any.

Posted from my BlackBerry
 
#26 ·
Thanks. The bulb is good - just shows nothing when doing the key dance. I'll grab a scanner to check for codes.

Is it normal to have codes set, but not activate the 'check engine' light ?

Regards, David
 
#24 ·
The fact that it starter fluid works only sometimes, and the fact your CEL is not firing now have me leaning toward a Pcm issue. I don't think your PCM is sending out signals to stop the pump or coil, but that it is losing power.

Perhaps there is a grounding issue with it, or a loose connector.

Clean your battery connections and all the grounds you can find. Firewall, engine. If no frame to engine ground exists, add one.

My ECM/PCM is grounded at the foot of the coil. Don't know about your '96
 
#25 ·
I think you're pretty close to the mark. I'll check the PCM & harness grounds. I'll also get a code scanner to check any 'hidden codes'.

I am 90 % sure we have intermittent spark & fuel, both. For this to be true (correct me if I've got this wrong), the PCM would have to be shutting down either the fuel pump or the ignition, or both.

I'll check the crank sensor. I'm told they go bad when mileage gets high - 185 k and 14 years old - maybe the pickup coil / distributor. I think the PCM itself is suspect if those don't fix it.

I tried to find a 'loaner' fuel guage to test pressure. May have to buy one. I did find & press the Schrader type valve on the fuel rail. Fuel sprayed vigorously, and it had been several hours since I last cranked the engine.

So, fuel pressure is at least there to some degree....thanks the search continues...David
 
#27 ·
Is the check engine lamp coming on when you first start/try to start it? It should come on very briefly, it not then there is a signal problem to the lamp and may indicate a problem with the PCM. Otherwise if it is coming on briefly then it still might have a code stored if it had set what is called a soft code, meaning that the PCM has detected a possible problem but has not confirmed it yet. Or if the lamp had been on and the PCM detects that the problem that tripped the lamp has disappeared then it may still have the code stored.

Also on the key dance check if there are no codes then the lamp should have flashed code 55, end of codes.
 
#30 ·
96 and 97 vans have mechanical odometers so the check engine lamp will flash for the codes. 98 and newer have the digital odometers and will display the full codes.
 
#29 ·
Success...Van now starts & runs well....thanks for your help...David

Gentlemen: Thank you for your help !

Here is what I've learned:

- No codes - key dance showed nothing. Couldn't get a loaner scanner at the parts store, so not sure if there are any stored codes. If there are, they aren't lighting the 'check engine' lamp.

- Fuel pressure is good. I know this because I cranked it late at night, next morning I pressed the schrader type pressure port on the fuel rail & fuel sprayed very vigorously; IE it held pressure all night, conclusion: pump pumps and check valve is holding pressure.

(BTW, this is, apparently, why the pump doesn't always run audibly upon keying up - if there is already sufficient pressure it won't - and I did, at first, mistakenly think that meant the pump wasn't functioning correctly. My erroneous assumption.....)

- New Crank Sensor needed: I read up lots of threads on Crank sensor's going out, or misreading signals, which shuts down the ignition system, via the PCM - ECU & Auto Shutdown Relay. So I put on a new crank sensor.....$ 84 at O'reilly's Auto Parts with Lifetime warranty. I think the original was toast, and highly suspect as a prime cause of our 'engine dies suddenly - failure to start'.

- New Pick-up Coil, in the Distributor: For good measure, I blew & wiped clean the rotating plate 'Hall Effect' part (integral with distributor), which have the critical function of telling the injectors when to fire. $ 34 w/ Lifetime warranty.
Much like the crank sensor, any malfunction on this part will cause shutdown, so it's a 'must replace' item as a matter of course.

- New Distributor Cap & Rotor - brass, (obviously).

Now for the moment of truth: it fired up fine on the very first crank ! With some trepidation, we drove for a 3 mile test drive, and it did great ! :cheerl:

There had been a slight tick-tick-tick noise at the rear of the engine before, now it was gone. Not sure the cause, but must have been in the pickup coil or the old crank sensor.

I pulled a plug - time for new ones, being so much else is new.

So, I think we've got a resolution - being cautious here because until I install the plugs, the doghouse & give it a longer shakedown, I'll hold the big celebration.

Assuming it was either a defective crank sensor or pick-up coll in the distributor, then this would be one more case of a sudden engine shutdown - SOLVED.

Final update to come......David
 
#32 ·
Final Resolution.....problem solved....

Ok to sum up the final resolution, the van now starts & runs, no quitting:

After several days & 300 miles, engine is trouble free. Runs waaay beter than before.

The fault lay with either the Crank Sensor OR the Pick-Up Coil (in the distributor).

I'm not sure which as I replaced both simultaneously. I reasoned that with having put 100,000 miles on the van in our 4 years of ownership, they could easily have been original & thus were past due for replacement.

For obvious reasons, I also replaced the Cap & rotor, wires & plugs. The Plugs I went with were NGK FR-4's - I heard several great reports about them from many here.

(I also 'side-gapped' the plugs, cutting back the side electrode to expose the center electrode more. This never fails to give a performance & mileage boost. It's a way cheaper deal than spending $$$ on the fancy electrode plugs. The NGK V-power FR 4 were just $ 1.99 each, but great overall quality....for more info, search the forums or Google the term for the article that explains how in more detail.)

So, this is one case of a suddenly dying 318 / 5.2 L Dodge being fixed, short of a major expensive fix.

I had feared it would be the fuel pump or ECU / PCM computer.

The former would have been a big hassle (tank was full, though pump had a lifetime warranty) and the latter would have been expensive - $ 400.

So praise God (and many thanks to you 'Ram Van Counselors'), it was a fairly simple fix, once all potential trouble areas had been discussed.

I am thankful that my wife & kids weren't stranded, that it happened in our driveway, NOT on a busy dangerous highway - (just two weeks we were in Nebraska & South Dakota on a trip.....that would have been both fun & expensive !)

So once again, thanks for all your help - hope this can be of help to others who've have the 'sudden death' of their Ram Van or other Dodge vehicle with the 318 - the Ram Pickup, Durango, Dakota, etc....

Best Regards & Safe Travels,

David / Ram Van Man
 
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