Coolant leak (97 Gran Caravan 3.8L V6)

[ZZ8]

I drive a 1997 Dodge Gran Caravan (3.8L V6). I went for an oil-change last week and I told the mechanic that the coolant reservoir was low. After putting the van up on the lift he pointed out to me a leak. This one black hose (passenger side) had some coolant residue. He looked under and he told me the water pump needed to be replaced. They quoted me $260 (estimate)

Let me first say that I am not mechanical savvy. I did change the starter motor two/three weeks ago and took me several hours.

Now, how easy is to say that the water pump needs to be replaced w/o running any tests or doing some trouble shooting first?

What can I do to try to find out what the problem is? Could be a hose? Or it may well be the water pump. Is this something I could do in my garage?

Thanks in advance.

[gas28man]

ZZ8,

If these guys are right--and there's about a 90 percent chance they are--you should go ahead and replace the water pump, but by all means do it yourself. I just did mine not long ago, and it was a piece o'cake job. The part itself was $29 at Auto Zone. Throw in a gallon or two of antifreeze and you're done for under $40.

You do it from underneath. I used ramps and drove the front of the van up on them, but you can use jackstands if you want. Get a five gallon bucket to drain your antifreeze into, and pull the two hoses off the pump to drain. Remove the serpentine belt (Use the longest 15 mm box-end wrench you can lay your hands on to swing the tensioner), and take off the five bolts holding the pump in place. There's a big o-ring inside the pump that needs to come out, and there should be a fresh one in the box with your new pump.

Bolt the new pump in, reattach your hoses, refill your coolant and put the serp belt back and you are done. No real tricks involved and access to everything is quite easy.

If you want the technique for R&Ring the serp belt, search the board, or pm me and I'll give it to you.

Now, as to the diagnosis of your problem, you could also have a bad hose or a loose connection. But if that's the case, it will become evident as you do the job. But definitely do the pump anyhow. It's so cheap, why not, cuz it will eventually go bad.

Rick

[ZZ8]

Thanks a lot Rick. I wanted to touch on a few points.

I am glad to know it is easy to do. You say: “No real tricks involved and access to everything is quite easy”. Would you say the starter motor is a quite easy job? I am asking because this is what I read here somewhere and when I did it, at least for me, it turned out to be not so easy. Granted that I may not have had the right tools plus my lack of experience, etc. (just a comment)

Should I be looking for a brand in particular? Should I also replace the hoses (since I am going to be down there anyway)?

If you don’t mind please, I would really appreciate if you can tell me what to do with the serp belt. I am going to search for it but I want to make sure I have as much info as possible.

Finally, the tech at the dealership told me that the water pump is supposed to last X number of miles. When I talked to a different mechanic (not at the dealership), he made a comment that water pumps are supposed to last “forever”. He did not use this word but it was pretty much what he meant. Totally different comments.

Thanks again, Marcelo.

[BABYGRAND]

Nothing lasts forever.

I just had mine blow at 156 000 km, and it seems to be the trend.

3 previous cars different makes all failed around the same time.

Just my .02.

[gas28man]

Marcelo

Here are the tricks for the serpentine belt:
1. Put your hood prop-rod down, and use a piece of wood or broomstick or something to prop your hood from the driver’s side instead. The prop-rod is right in the way of where you need to stand to get the best leverage on removing or reinstalling.
2. Get the longest 15 mm box-end wrench you can to get maximum leverage on the tensioner. The spring is very stiff.
3. Thread the belt according to the diagram, but don’t make the tensioner pulley the last one you thread it onto. Instead, leave your slack at the other ungrooved (fixed) pulley at the front of the engine. Then crank on the tensioner with your right hand, while slipping the belt onto that pulley with your left.

As to the degree of difficulty on this job, I've never done a starter on my van. It's still the original at 304,000 miles, so I have no basis for judgment. To me, it didn't seem much harder than changing a tire.

I would never take the word of a service writer at a dealership about anything. If a service writer told me my mother loved me, I would check it out first. My cousin has a friend who's very good at that job, and could get a job anywhere making $120K a year at it. But when he has worked as a service writer, about every two to three years he has to quit and take some mindless, low-paying job for a year or so (until he blows through his savings) because he gets overwhelmed with the guilt of selling customers stuff they don't need at inflated prices.

So at 304,000 miles, I am on my fourth water pump. The first one went at about 110K, the second at about 210K, the third at 299K.

Brand names don't seem to make a difference here. I used a different brand every time.

And I'd say as long as you have all the coolant drained out of the system already, and you have the money to spend and time to do it, why not replace all the cooling system hoses?

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Rick

[ZZ8]

Thanks Rick once again. I am getting things ready and I am planning on starting this Saturday morning. I will post updates soon.

[ZZ8]

Rick, I am afraid I am going to need some more directions from you. I was looking at the engine today (top and bottom) and I am not really sure where to start. To make things easier I have taken some pictures. Here they are:

The first one is from the bottom (passanger side). This is what we saw at the dealer. Please look at the hose and that edge in the red circle.

The second picture is just a different angle.

In the third picture, could you please give me an idea what is it I need to remove?

Thank you, Marcelo.

[gas28man]

Good photography, and your engine is way cleaner than mine.

OK, the serpentine belt is visible in your pic #3. The alternator is at the top rear of the engine. The next pulley forward, with no ridges on it, is the tensioner pulley. Set your LONG 15 mm box-end wrench on the nut in the center of the pulley, and pull toward the front of the van and slip the belt off. You have to pull hard on the wrench. The spring is very stiff. A helper is a good idea.

The hose that comes out from beneath your red circle in pic #1, the big lower radiator hose, is the one you want to disconnect. Vise grips or channel lock pliers work well on that clamp. Squeeze the tabs on the clamp, and slide it down the hose and out of the way, then you should be able to twist and wiggle the hose off. Have your bucket in place to catch all the coolant. It will take a while to drain. Except for removing the serp belt, you will be working exclusively underneath the vehicle. (If you want to replace this hose, now is the time. There should be the same clamp at the other end of it. Remove it the same way.)

The fixture that the lower hose is attached to is your water pump. Go to the store and buy the new one and look it over so you know what you're working with. I forgot to mention one part of this repair. After you drain the coolant and remove the serp belt, you will also need to remove the pulley from the old pump BEFORE you try to remove the pump itself. No other way to get at the bolts securing it to the engine otherwise. This isn't hard, though. Use two wrenches of the same size (10 mm maybe?), using one to hold the pulley from turning, and the other to loosen the bolts securing the pulley to the hub of the pump. Loosen all of them first before removing them, otherwise you won't be able to loosen the last one. Once you have the pulley off, the five bolts that hold the pump on should be easy to get at. When you put the new pump on, just make the five bolts tight, don't torque on them so hard that you snap the head off the bolt. Reinstallation of the pulley is the reverse of installing.

You'd mentioned wanting to replace your radiator hoses. I covered the lower one above. While you still have all the coolant out of the engine, you can do the upper as well. It's right in the middle of your pic #3. Same clamps as your lower hose.

Any other questions, just ask.

Have fun!

Rick

[gas28man]

By the way, the spot in your circle in pic #1 is definitely the source of your leak. Not much doubt in my mind that you have a bad water pump. I would not be surprised if, when you take the old pump off, you find some flaw in the o-ring inside.

Rick

[ZZ8]

Thanks Rick. I am just hoping that once I start, I can put everything back together. I am going to be using a jack and jack stands to do the job. I just hope I have enough space to maneuver.

A few questions:

To drain the coolant I need to remove the big radiator hose (beneath red circle in pic #1) right? I am assuming that the coolant will come out from where my red circle is (pic #1) right?

Is the hose marked in the picture (new pic #1) the one I should also change?

Once the coolant has been drained and the water pump has been replaced. Do I need to flush the system with regular water?

Thanks again. Marcelo.

[ZZ8]

I finally found a picture of the water pump I saw at AutoZone...

[gas28man]

Oh yeah, the water will come spilling out of there pretty hard once you wiggle the lower radiator hose off the pump, but I use a big five gallon bucket which catches it all. Actually we have cats, and buy cat litter in the big square buckets. I save'em and use'em for catching car fluids -- coolant, used oil, etc. They're great, but my wife gets a little upset when there's about five of'em stacked in the closet. The cats "go" more often than the van does. HAHAHAHAHA!

Anyhow, corny humor aside, the pump in the picture is the right one. And yes, if you want to, the hose you point out in the new picture is the one you should replace, although judging by the picture it is in great shape. Cripes, I can read the label on it. I'd leave it alone, and just concern yourself with the pump and the lower hose.

As far as flushing with water, no, I wouldn't bother. You'll be draining the thing pretty dry as it is, so save yourself the trouble and the mess. I much prefer going to the quick oil-change shop and paying them $40 for a full cooling system flush. Just fill back up with a nice 50-50 mixture of coolant and water after you button everything up, and you should be good to go.

Rick

[ZZ8]

I got underneath the van yesterday again. I am still studying the situation, trying to get my thoughts together.

The bottom hose is connected to the water pump and the radiator (post #7 – pic #1 and #2). Post #7 – pic #1 (copied below) also shows that black piece of plastic sitting underneath the bottom hose (two red arrows pointing at it). Based on what I saw yesterday, I am going to need to remove this piece, for two reasons:

1) So I can collect all the coolant coming out of the system
2) So I can reach all the 5 bolts that keep the water pump secure

Marcelo.

[gas28man]

Yeah, that's a plastic splash shield. I honestly don't remember removing mine, but I must have because, as you point out, it's definitely in the way. I think it just bolts up in a couple of places, so it should be an easy removal. Definitely replace it when you're done. A lot of people think these kinds of things are optional, and it ends up costing them later.

Rick

[ZZ8]

Quick update: I rehearsed “all” the steps needed. I got the tools ready and I purchased the water pump. I believe I have everything I need. I will try to take pictures along the way so I can post them later in the week.

[ZZ8]

Rick, what coolant type should I buy? Do I need to buy it from the dealership?

Thank you.

[gas28man]

Being the Birkenstock-wearing, tree-hugging, dirt-worshipper that I am, I buy the environmentally friendly stuff. Makes no difference what brand you use. Just make it a nice 50-50 mix.

Another thing I do when filling coolant -- and this may be overkill -- I prefer to use bottled water. I always suspected that the iron content of the tap water where I lived contributed to premature corrosion, but I could be wrong on this. Anyone else want to render an opinion on this?

Rick

[ZZ8]

Thanks Rick. I was asking since I have seen different colors: orange, green, etc. I know for example that GM uses (or used to use) the Dexacool one wich is orange. This is the reason why I was asking.

[ZZ8]

It is finally done! Rick, I can't thank you enough for all your help. I have to be fair and say that I had a very good person (Milton) helping me thru the whole thing. Now that I was able to see it and be part of it I believe I can do it myself next time. Here is what we did:

1. We removed the serpentine belt
2. We put the van on jack stands
3. We removed the black splash guard (pic in post #13). There are two bolts and two fasteners holding it in place
3. We removed the hose connected to the water pump (pic #1 in post #7) to drain all the coolant (this took about 10 minutes)
4. We removed the water pump (5 bolts). Notice here that since we removed the serpentine belt, we had to lock (with a screw driver) the pulley attached to the water pump.
5. The water pump gasket got stuck to the surface where the water pump is bolt on, so we used a putty knife to clean the area
6. We installed the new water pump (gasket in place). Thank God we had two manuals with us, the Haynes and the Chilton's. The Haynes (which is wrong) says that the water pump bolts needs to be tighten to 21 Ft-lbs and the Chilton's says that the water pump bolts needs to be tighten at 10 Ft-lbs
7. We installed a new water pump hose (to replace the old one)
8. We re-positioned the serpentine belt
9. We used Prestone Super Radiator Flush to clean and flush the coolant system (took about 45 minutes based on the instruction we followed)
10. We refilled with coolant. We used Peak Long Life 50/50 (it took about two gallons). Keep in mind that you may need to refill it again (water pockets)

Here are pictures of the old water pump and the Peak Antifreeze

[gas28man]

Congrats. Glad it went well.

Rick

[pandeyrs]

Hi ZZ8,

Congratulations. I was just wondering how long it took you to do this all. This is very encouraging to those of us who have not done something like this. I hope one day I will be doing the same on my van. This is also nice that there are folks like Rick who share their knowledge and provide encouragement and support to those who are inexpereinced in auto repairs.

Rakesh

[ZZ8]

Thanks Rakesh. I am on the same boat as you are. I consider myself inexperienced when it comes to auto repair. I like it and I am learning a lot doing all these things. My first involved project was to change the starter motor. That took me about 6 hours. A lot of that time was spent figuring out what tools to use and two trips to AutoZone. Just to give you an idea, if I have to do it again I am guessing it should take me about (or less than) 3 hours.

About the water pump, I would say the project itself is a little more involved than the starter motor. There are things that you need to remove in order to get to the water pump. It is also a bit messy. But at the same time, there is more room to work on (which is very nice). The whole project took about 3 hours. We took our time and we flushed and clean the whole system (twice). This alone takes close to an hour. The water pump and the hose (that connects to the radiator) were changed. We also took some time and we removed the coolant reservoir to clean it. We could not clean it all the way (we did not have the appropriate brush) but it looks somewhat better now.

Marcelo.

[pandeyrs]

Thanks for your reply Marcelo.

It is good that you are enjoying learning to do these repairs yourself. It is also nice to have someone help you when you do it for the first time. When people who have experience share theirs, we do not have to reinvent the wheels. The pictures you posted on this forum were very hepful. I have been collecting information and am about to start a project of mine, to replace the trasmission shift solenoid pack on my 98 Grand Voyager. I also am planning to do the transmission filter and fluid repalcement. Someone who did this recently shared some information with me, but I wish they had done it the way you did in terms of pictures and step-by step approach etc. I could not even figure out initially where the solenoid pack sits on the transmission. When I am done with my project, I will try to post that information here in a separate thread. It would have been nice if more knowledgeable folks here posted some of the commonly done maintenance and repair projects with some instructions and pictures etc.

Thanks again,

Rakesh

[ZZ8]

I feel the same way. A DIY section with pics and step by step instructions would be great. Specially for people like us.

You know what I will do. I will try to compile all the instructions and pictures for my two projects (starter motor and water pump). :gr_patrio

The ideal thing would have been to take the pics while I was doing the job, but I did not have the time to do that. I will do my best to compile all the info. and then, knowledgeable people like Rick can review it and may be suggest better ways.

[gas28man]

Hey guys, I'm no expert. Just an experienced amateur like yourselves. Anyhow, this is the ideal use for this forum. Everyone shares what they know, and all who view it can benefit.

I was particularly intrigued, Marcello, when you said the gasket was deformed on your old pump. That was where I'd guessed you would find your problem, and it appears to have been the case. You helped me understand something, too, about the torque spec on the bolts. I had tried to torque one to the wrong spec, per Haynes, and snapped the head off. Luckily I was able to back the rest of the bolt out and replace it. I had suspected I'd been given the wrong spec, so I just took my best guess.

And Rakesh, I am really interested to see what you come up with on your tranny fluid change, and replacement of the solenoid pack.

Rick

[pandeyrs]

Marcelo, that is great that you have agreed to put your experience on this site for the benefit of others. A DIY section is defnintely a good idea for folks like us. Thanks for doing this.

Rick, for us you are definitely an expert since you are always willing to share your experience and provide valuable suggestions. Those experts who do not share their experieneces are of no help to us. I had posted my problem on a couple of other forums and got no response till today and I did not know about this forum until Renee emailed me. I will certainly let you know what I find out about my transmission situation since I got the idea about solenoid pack from your response to Renee's post about P0760 and P0700. My van has been totally trouble free so far except for this issue with service engine soon MIL and transmission going into limp mode. Some mechanic recommended a torque converter rebuild, but I am not buying into that argument yet. BTW, would you recommend taking a chance with a $65 rebuilt solenoid pack or getting new one from dealership for about 160-204. Thanks again for all of your posts and advice. I have started reading this forum regularly now.

Rakesh

[gas28man]

Well, the experience of myself and others has been that a solenoid pack has to have the right programming to work properly. I had one put in that had the wrong programming, and caused a harsh downshift out of overdrive at 45 mph. It also caused fluid to weep out of every gasket because it kept the pressure to high. The solution was to take it in and have it re-flashed. I would guess that this would be less likely to happen if you got one from the dealer.

Good luck

Rick

[pandeyrs]

Thanks Rick, your advice helped me make up my mind about not going for the rebuilt solenoid and I will get the dealer part. Since the solenoid issue is not a part of this thread, I will start a new thread on that for any further talk on this topic.

Thanks again,

Rakesh