Hemi or LS1

[MeanMopar426]

hey guys i'm just windering what engine is more powerful and has more potential because me and my friend argue all the time the 5.7L hemi or the LS1 because he says the LS1 is severll underrated

[MG42pillbox]

Compare the compression ratios, the HEMI has Much more potential.

The Magnum and 3000C Hemis, have actually been Dyno tested, and have achieved 355hp and 390lbs oTQ not the 340hp officially posted. :cool:

[Compstall]

I'd like to see a dyno sheet. :)

The LS1 has been around for 8 years now so the aftermarket is light years ahead on the new Hemi. I'm sure the Hemi aftermarket will come around eventually though, and some really cool stuff will be out there in the coming years.

[FreeLantz]

Just wait for the 6.1-liter HEMI........

[qzking]

How did you get the info on the 6.1 for 2006? I was hot-to-trot on the 2005 but have been put off by some of the posts I've been reading. Any info on the 300 Touring model they're offering in Europe?
KK

[FreeLantz]

Allpar.com has a lot of good info on the latest news and rumors from Chrysler. It's widely known that the 6.1-liter engine is on its way next year in the 300C (spring time) and the Charger (next fall). The 300 Touring wont be sold in the US.

[Raxstone]

Yes, Chrysler will release the 6.1L Hemi shortly (and apparently without the MDS). But, GM will also be releasing it's 6.0L LS2. They are pretty much balanced. Don't let the engine decide which car to buy, instead, let the car itself make the decision. If you like the GTO, Corvette, etc, buy one. If you like the Charger, Magnum, or 300C, than buy it. 5 years later, either one can be made faster (in 5 years the aftermarket availability for either motor will be awesome). So, what's really important is that you get a car you'll still like 5 years from now.

[FreeLantz]

Good points, Raxstone. Chrysler's 6.1-liter engine will presumably be more widely used than the new GM 6.0-liter LS2. It will be offered in everything from the Ram truck to the 300 SRT, Magnum SRT, and Charger SRT, and possibly even in the Durango and Jeep Grand Cherokee. With the volume of these that Chrysler is planning to sell, I'd think the aftermarket will be huge for them in a few years.

[glenB]

Until DC goes to MAF on ALL the vehicles to measure air intake the LS series will be easier to modify by the average rodder. Once DC does, the HEMI head will prove superior.The current LS port layout and airflow is good. GM is also going to a 6.0L for '05 in the Vette,GTO and the Caddies running the LS. The LS is also an all aluminum engine w/a small bore, large stroke, which seems to be the current thinking in under 5.7L displacement. It is as hi-tech as the HEMI and responds well to all mods. Most cars don't need PCM mods to run cams as small as 219 @ .050 on a 114 l/s but can help. The current HP rating for the base C6 Vette will be 405 HP w/a 425 HP for the Z06, expected. Expect a 6.6L to show up with 500HP to compete directly with the Viper in the HP wars.

I believe the current LS series is a step on the way to a OHC V8 from GM sperate from the Northstar. As is current in their 4 & 5 cyl engines. Displacement On Demand will also show up in '05.

[americanbulldog]

LS1's aftermarket is much better than the Hemi's. I got 363 rwhp out of my old LS1 with a head/cam with headers, aftercat exhaust. I only have 283 rwhp with true flow, flowmaster hemi specific cat back, thorleys, superchip. The T-56 is a much better tranny than the 5 spd slush box we have in the Hemi. I am hoping the aftermarket catches up.

[Honest Al]

Until DC goes to MAF on ALL the vehicles to measure air intake the LS series will be easier to modify by the average rodder. Once DC does, the HEMI head will prove superior.The current LS port layout and airflow is good. GM is also going to a 6.0L for '05 in the Vette,GTO and the Caddies running the LS. The LS is also an all aluminum engine w/a small bore, large stroke, which seems to be the current thinking in under 5.7L displacement. It is as hi-tech as the HEMI and responds well to all mods. Most cars don't need PCM mods to run cams as small as 219 @ .050 on a 114 l/s but can help. The current HP rating for the base C6 Vette will be 405 HP w/a 425 HP for the Z06, expected. Expect a 6.6L to show up with 500HP to compete directly with the Viper in the HP wars.

I believe the current LS series is a step on the way to a OHC V8 from GM sperate from the Northstar. As is current in their 4 & 5 cyl engines. Displacement On Demand will also show up in '05.

Glen,
You mentioned the small bore/long stroke (undersquare) used on the LS series, this will become more and more common. The reason is that bores larger than 4.00" are VERY difficult to pass emissions tests with. This is the reason that the factories ( at least DC and FMC) have gone to V10s to make large displacement engines.

[glenB]

Glen,
You mentioned the small bore/long stroke (undersquare) used on the LS series, this will become more and more common. The reason is that bores larger than 4.00" are VERY difficult to pass emissions tests with. This is the reason that the factories ( at least DC and FMC) have gone to V10s to make large displacement engines.

This is true, but with new ring packages that reduce the area between the ring land and piston top, such as chrysler is doing, and better injector placement and spray patterns along with chamber design, a 4" bore is not a problem. The new C6 engine and the truck 6.0L as well as the 6.1L hemi are all 4" bores. But as you stated about emmissions, I agree, and think that for 'big' displacement 8 cyl from the OEM, we are probably at the limit and still be within emission requirements.

[Honest Al]

I believe I said ' larger than 4.00"'

[glenB]

I believe I said ' larger than 4.00"' My bad :eek: , still

[MagnumMan]

Found this about the SRT-8 concept (http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/magnum.html):

The Dodge Magnum SRT-8 concept vehicle takes the Hemi one step further, with a Whipple supercharger to add power at both low and high rpm. It helps to raise power to about 430 horsepower and 480 lb-ft of torque - just a tad more than the official ratings of the legendary 426 Hemi, and without the single-digit gas mileage or oil consumption.

[Honest Al]

Found this about the SRT-8 concept (http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/magnum.html):
Both I and this quote appear to be incorrect! The SRT8 (according to allpar site) will be a 6.1L (370cid) w/ a 4.060" bore and achieve it's power w/o a supercharger...that's right, 430hp N/A! Take that LS1! :rck:

[MagnumMan]

Yeah, I read in another article that they probably wouldn't make the supercharger available on the models which is probably why they're going for the 6.1 Hemi instead. But it would be nice to have the supercharger as an aftermarket addon. :)

[03ramsport]

they are rated at 305 hp but they put 305 to the wheels and come in much smaller and lighter cars. hemi's advertise 345 but put about 275 to the wheels, a 6.1 hemi,,now that's another story but we'll just have to see. and motor potential is about money,,i can make a honda civic 4 banger run with a viper no prob. If i had the money. the i think after the 6.1 comes out the aftermarket will catch on and ls1's will be choking on dust. but as for now 5.7 for 5.7 ls1's own hemi's. <----IMO

[Compstall]

The LS1 is quickly getting dated. It's been around since '97, and I find it comical you're comparing a motor that has yet to come out will compete with a motor that's been around for almost 8 years on the market. GM already has engines in the works that will cook that 6.1's chicken.

I too was happy to see the Hemi come out, but after reading the power #'s I'm not impressed. GM and Ford both have comparable engines in that category. But they all make power in different places in the power band, so I guess it really matters where you like the power to be. Without going to a diesel, I personally think the Hemi makes power where it needs to be in a truck; bottom/mid range. This makes me look back to GM's old TPI motor, which I think is MUCH better applied in a truck than a sports car.

[Jim Kowalski]

I have a C5 with a nice fresh LS1 and there is no comparison there is much grunt in the low end the hemi dosnt produce..
Ls1 has a power band thats wide ranged unlike the hemi ..
Most races are won in a block not a mile........

[Raxstone]

I have a C5 with a nice fresh LS1 and there is no comparison there is much grunt in the low end the hemi dosnt produce..
Ls1 has a power band thats wide ranged unlike the hemi ..
Most races are won in a block not a mile........

You cannot begin to think that is a good comparison to judge from! The C5 weighs in at a minimum of 700lbs less than any currently equipped HEMI vehicle. Add to that the fact that the C5 had somewhere in the 3.15 range for rear gears while the LX cars have what, 2.82? What is the C5 -- a 6-speed or an auto? Keep in mind the LX's are all automatic. Even if your C5 is an auto, you have a higher stall converter (about 2400rpm) compared to the LX's which are probably in the typical 1850 stall range. With those facts in mind, then obviously the C5 has more grunt all the way across the board. Being an LS1 car has nothing to do with your statement.

[Compstall]

Stock C5 auto's come standard with a 2.73 rear end, and the stock stall speed is at around 1800 rpm.

[diamondrmp]

I just sold my 01 Vette. It is a very very fast car. All i did was install an intake and exhaust and it made a huge SOTP difference. The Hemi in my Magnum is powerful, but there truly is no comparison between the two. The Vette is made to kick ass plain and simple. The R/T's are meant to be fast have more use than a Vette. Even the SRT8 won't be able to hang with the new LS2 engine for that fact a slightly modified LS1 will smike an SRT8.

This coming from a person that sold his Vette to get an R/T! I love my Magnum but it is no contest for a Vette and neither is the SRT8. They are like comparing apples and oranges.

[maneval69]

Add to that the fact that the C5 had somewhere in the 3.15 range for rear gears while the LX cars have what, 2.82?

I had posted the following on another site but it sound like it would be good food for thought for this thread.
The camaro ls1 trans gear ratios are 1st=2.92, 2nd=2.07, 3rd=1.43, 4th=1
5th and 6th don't mater to this conversation.

The stock LX R/T 5 speed actually has a lower final drive ratio in 1st (2.82x3.59=10.12) than the 6 speed Camaro’s that have 3.42 rear gear. (3.42x2.92=9.98)
But I forgot one thing Tire Diameter. The LX has a 28.6 inch tire and the F body has 25.7 which works out to a 0.116:1 reduction in gear ratio for the LX making it a 10.004 for comparison. (please check my math)
True not much of a difference but a lot of people think the stock R/T gear is way too high for a street performance car, when in fact they hit the nail on the head.

[BamaHemi]

The Hemi's are so detuned from the factory via the PCM. The LS1 and LS6 are nice engines but they do not have the potential that the 5.7L and 6.1L have. How much more does that Magnum of yours weigh than your Vette? Oh about 800lbs or so. Combine that w/ a restrictive PCM and of course its not as fast.

DC is far more advanced now than GM since it teamed w/ Mercedes. The Vette may reach 500 h.p. so what, tweak the V-10 a little or develop a new engine for the Viper and DC is right back ahead.

I have NEVER been impressed w/ the Vette. I have watched many get smoked by LS1 T/A's at the track. The ZO6 w/ 500 h.p. won't catch the Viper.

BTW... The 5.7L Hemi head out flows the LS6 at HALF the valve lift. The Head is where all the potential is at.

Eliminate the Throttle by wire, (already been done) open up the PCM, and then tune it right and their is no small block built right now that will compete.

[diamondrmp]

The point of what I said Bama is that they are two completely different cars for two compleyely different purposes. Just because YOU are not impressed with the Vette doesn't change the fact that the Vette is a very fast car. Since you are not impressed with the Vette there is much you do not KNOW about the Vette. The Vette is very detuned also. Like I stated the smallest inexpensive tweeks gets a lot of HP out of the enigine. Then you can go into heads etc. I do agree with you that better flowing heads would be a plus for the Vette. Match a LS1, LS2 or LS6 aftermarket part and tune for each the same and the Vette WILL prevail. I love my magnum but it is no contest for a Vette. Just like a stock Vette is no contest for a Viper except the NEW Z06 and it is running on 2 fewer cylinders.

[Super T]

About the vette being detuned... the last gen. camaro/firebird ls1's actually outperformed the vette in acceleration (not cornering by a long shot though). As a result, GM felt the need to dumb down the cars so corvette owners didn't piss vinegar over the fact their slower car cost so much more. This is why an intake, exhaust and chip can get you such high (80+ combined) hp increases... you're just releasing the potential GM tried to hide. Long story short, the vette is classy, but not the speed demon many think it is... at least not stock. Maybe if it had some 30" wide tires to stick some power to the ground it would stand a chance.

[diamondrmp]

About the vette being detuned... the last gen. camaro/firebird ls1's actually outperformed the vette in acceleration (not cornering by a long shot though). As a result, GM felt the need to dumb down the cars so corvette owners didn't piss vinegar over the fact their slower car cost so much more. This is why an intake, exhaust and chip can get you such high (80+ combined) hp increases... you're just releasing the potential GM tried to hide. Long story short, the vette is classy, but not the speed demon many think it is... at least not stock. Maybe if it had some 30" wide tires to stick some power to the ground it would stand a chance.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/diamondrmp/Feb2004A.jpg


Super T have you owned a C5 or C6? I have, my 2001 Vette when stock SMOKED Camaro SS's and the WS6 Firebirds. Those two versions are tuned and they couldn't hang with my Vette. After I installed my aftermarket goodies it was even faster and quicker. Maybe I got lucky and just had an extremely fast Vette from the factory but I know I REGULARLY killed SS Camaros and WS6 Firebirds.



And I will reiterate that if you match these cars aftermarket part for aftermarket part the Vette will prevail. This coming from experience not theory.

[medman90]

What is everyone trying to compare? Vette vs. Magnum performance? Obviously, the Vette wins hands down, regardless of mods. But if you just want to talk about the two engines performance and take the rest of the car out of the equation....the HEMI is hard to match, at this time.

[Super T]

Yeah, the vette will run circles 'round the bird and the camaro... but it's only cuz GM made it so. Think about it... it's the same motor... the Corvette chassis isn't magical. The only reason the F-bodies (w/ the ls1) are so much slower is the tuning and restricted breathing. They're meant to be slower... otherwise why would anyone pay so much more money for the vette? The hemi's run the same way, but it's primarily for emissions (though the car is still at the high end of the particulate emissions spectrum).

[BamaHemi]

Thats the main debate... Hemi vs LS1/LS6.... The 5.7L has more potential than the LS6. The 6.1L Hemi has so much potential its crazy. I say the 6.1L should be the new Viper engine. 600 h.p. N/A would be EASY to achieve.

[maneval69]

Thats the main debate... Hemi vs LS1/LS6.... The 5.7L has more potential than the LS6. The 6.1L Hemi has so much potential its crazy. I say the 6.1L should be the new Viper engine. 600 h.p. N/A would be EASY to achieve.

I am not saying your wrong but, that a pretty vague statement.
What potential are you talking about?
What is the reason for that potential?

[JustinHEMI04]

I don't know anything about the 6.1 and what makes it different from the 5.7. Just a little off topic but can you quickly tell me the differences that make the 6.1 crazy potential and the 5.7 just regular potential?

Justin

[BamaHemi]

"A new intake manifold and exhaust headers with individual tubes encased in a stainless steel shell helped improve breathing. Sodium-filled exhaust valves help improve heat dissipation. Compression was boosted from 9.6:1 to 10.3:1. The camshaft was tweaked, while peak engine speed was boosted 15 percent, to 6200 rpm."

The 6.1L heads also use 2.08 Intake valves compared to the 2.00 in the 5.7L

The 6.1L also has a forged bottom end that will be perfect for 10+ lbs of boost or a 250 shot of N20.

The 5.7L CAN use the 6.1L Cam or a Comp Cam, have some headwork done, and put a forged bottom end w/ new Higher compression pistons and it would be very similar to the 6.1L. But thats a lot of work and money when the package is already their.

Now as for what potential these engines have?? Its a Hemi, name me another engine that has more potential than a Hemi.....

[Super T]

You just contradicted yourself.... 'potential' would be unused power... 'cept the 6.1 is DC's best effort to squeeze every last drop out of the 5.7. The 5.7 therefore has the potential to put out the 430hp the 6.1 does... make sense? It does in my twisted head :-p In addition to the compression ratio, breathing and cam, the 6.1 block also has extra bracing added to accomodate the extra power... leading me to believe from a structural standpoint you wouldn't want to put much more than a buck shot of nitrous on the 5.7 for fear of blowing it up.

[BamaHemi]

If you really truly believe that the 6.1 is "maxed" out then how does the LS6 make 505 h.p. with LESS cubic inches and far inferior heads?

As for the 5.7L handling Nitrous... yeah the stock bottom pistons are cast and can't handle much more than a 125 shot. But have you seen seen the way the 5.7L responds to the gas? RWHP numbers are HUGE!

[Super T]

By no means is it maxed... I'm sure you could bang an easy 100 out of it while leaving it N/A. There's practicality issues though... EPA guidelines, appetite for fuel, noise, etc. That's what the Viper is for :-p To clarify, are we talking about the LS1 or LS6? The differences are pretty much all top end work... same stuff dodge did to put out the 6.1L. Funny how they all think the same :-p I'm curious why you call the LS6 heads far inferior?

[BamaHemi]

Hot Rod said the 5.7L heads out flowed the LS6 at HALF the valve lift. I guess far Inferior is a little harsh. They are good heads, but the Hemi heads flow far more cfms.

Hot Rod said the 5.7L head flowed more like a $15,000 Winston Cup head than a Production head.

Yeah I knew their was just top end differences between the LS1 and LS6, a lot of the extra power comes from the Tune.

One thing to note though about the Hemi... timing is about 18-20 degrees on the 5.7 Hemi (unsure on the 6.1L) My 5.9L w/ a Custom flash has 36* of total advance. So the Hemi appears to have a VERY mild timing curve. I'm sure this is a reason why I haven't heard of anyone trashing a engine w/ N20 yet. The fuel curves on some 5.7L dynos could use some help as well. They start out lean at about 15.1, toward peak power at 5,400 rpms the A/F is in the 10's. Mid 12's would make a lot more Power at the peak.

I'm sure this is how Superchips is gonna draw a lot of power out of the 5.7L. I doubt they mess w/ the Timing though.

[Super T]

Interesting... I haven't seen any of the fuel maps. What was the timing on your 5.9 before the flash? Or did you not alter it? 36 degrees is a bit much for a low (relatively) rpm engine though... i guess it has to do with combustion chamber volume too, but crotch rockets that wind up to 15,000rpm only advance to the high 30's, low 40's... How much more power did you see? 15.1 is about right... 10 A/F is pretty soaked though.... I wonder how much actually gets burned and how much just gets flushed through.

[BamaHemi]

Ohh... I gotta dig into my 5.9 knowledge... I believe the stock advance was 28 degrees on the 5.9L BUT I'm can't remember for sure. The 36* was brought in at low rpms to help w/ torque. 36* was all B&G recommended for the 5.9L and you had to run 93 octane and a step colder plug was recommended along w/ a 180* Thermostat. The 5.9L only had 8.9.1 compression to so that helped some. However, my Fully worked R/T heads were shaved 0.0030 to compensate for the thicker Felpro headgaskets. With those heads my 5.9L was around 9.5.1 compression and was just fine w/ the 36*. Of course a nicely worked set of heads allows for more timing advance due to the reduction of "Hot spots" in the heads.

I think Dodge mainly runs the rich A/F up top for safety on their part. Theirs no chance it could be lean. I also believe they use the dual spark system to compensate for this rich A/F to get by emissions. The Hemi would seem to pass emissions easily if they leaned the A/F curve out a little.

[maneval69]

The hot rod article said the intake valves flowed better than the LS1 but the exhaust where not as good. I don't know what the LS1 heads flow but here are the numbers from that article.
5.7 Hemi Heads
Bench flow numbers (CFM)
lift=intake/exh
.050=34.6/25.3
.100=74/52
.200=144/111
.300=210/146
.400=251/160
.500=265/164
.600=267/166
the exhaust was flowed without pipes and the flow test was done at 28 inches of water depression

I would assume they run such rich mix because the engine runs at 215 degrees.
Scroll down this thread and you can see my Dyno chart with A/F at the bottom of the chart.
Dyno with A/F (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=11645)

We defiantly need to get some better fuel maps for WOT. And so we can run leaner we will need a programmer to change the fan on/off temps and maybe 180 thermostat.

['03 MOPAR R/T]

...Eliminate the Throttle by wire, (already been done) open up the PCM, and then tune it right and their is no small block built right now that will compete.


BamaHemi, could you better explain what you mean by "Eliminate the Throttle by wire"? Sounds interesting!!!

[aries4life]

i wish they had dumped the "throttle by wire". I don't want the computer to decide whether or not to open the butterfly---especially when I'm tryin to punch it into traffic. Also, I wish the "ESP OFF" button did it's job. If it did do it's job, I'd be able to punch it and fry the tires on demand. Instead, I get clicking noises when it shifts and the feeling of brake application when I'm tryin to slide and the ESP doesn't want me to.

By the way, what's with that rapid clicking noise? Is that a relay pulsing? I assume it's normal because the manual makes reference to "clicking noises" associated with the traction control. Should I have it checked out? Could it be in the exhaust (I heard it before I cut off the suitcase)? I DO still have the back mufflers...

[Super T]

It does suck that you can never have total control. I'd be ok with the throttle by wire, just like i'd be ok with the autostick instead of a manual and the esp... if it did what you wanted it to. I'm really not a fan of the time it takes for the tranny to shift after you tell it to. Obviously it's always faster to maintain traction than to lose it, but it just isn't as much fun.