I've got the parts to do the swap, seems easy to me. There is alot of benifits of doing this, most importantly for me I get to easily fab up a complete new ignition wiring harness, secondly you can get full twelve volts to the coil (stronger spark), lastly you get to do away with two weak links (balast, chrysler EI module).
85_d250
05-20-2009, 09:48 PM
Thats what I thought, that it's easier and what not...
Well looks like thats what I'll be doing...
Can I use normal mopar coil still?
bherder
05-20-2009, 09:57 PM
Can I use normal mopar coil still?
NO!!!
You MUST use a coil that will accept FULL voltage! (12-14 volts)
You'll burn up a 'stock' mopar coil reeeal quick...
85_d250
05-20-2009, 10:01 PM
I I capin...
Speed Dragon
05-20-2009, 10:05 PM
I think it's a LOT easier. And simpler.
that's cause you're old and lazy :D
I dunno, I really don't see the point, I've never had a problem w/ the Chrysler module. Or points, for that matter. And you can run a 12v coil on the Chrysler system, all you have to do is remove the ballast resistor (which, as you say is a weak link). Although honestly, I think I've only ever seen 1 or 2 go bad. It's not like they die every day. If you have properly maintained wiring, you'll seldom have a problem w/ any part of the system. And re-wiring the Chrysler system is not really any harder than wiring in the HEI, might require more wire. There's only 4 wires to the Chrysler ECU. And I've seen just as many HEI modules go bad as the Chrysler, maybe more. So the "more reliable" argument really doesn't fly w/ me either.
Bottom line, if you know what you're doing, the Chrysler setup is just as simple to fix. The HEI is the quick easy cop-out to fixing the real problem, the wiring. It's kinda like people that want to rip off EFI and go carbed because "that efi crap is just too hard to figure out" ;)
Speed Dragon
05-20-2009, 10:07 PM
... most importantly for me I get to easily fab up a complete new ignition wiring harness...
Why not fab a new harness for a stock ECU? It's just 4-wires ;)
85_d250
05-20-2009, 10:36 PM
wow you know what just clicked?...ive been useing a 12 volt coil the whole time...the ballast is still hooked up...so could it be my coil isnt getting the full 12 volts because its going through that ballast thus not sparking?...
bherder
05-21-2009, 01:43 AM
that's cause you're old and lazy
Ahhhhhhh, C'mon Speed .... Lazy, I'm not.. :D
I dunno, I really don't see the point, I've never had a problem w/ the Chrysler module. Or points, for that matter.
Consider yourself lucky, I guess... Although it doesn't mean it's the end-all-be-all ... ;)
And you can run a 12v coil on the Chrysler system, all you have to do is remove the ballast resistor (which, as you say is a weak link). Although honestly, I think I've only ever seen 1 or 2 go bad.
Ballast resistors? Well ... (I know y'all is just a 'spring chicken' ;) ) ... but back "In The Day" any Mopar guy used to always carry a spare resistor in the glovebox... ;)
It's not like they die every day. If you have properly maintained wiring, you'll seldom have a problem w/ any part of the system. And re-wiring the Chrysler system is not really any harder than wiring in the HEI, might require more wire. There's only 4 wires to the Chrysler ECU. And I've seen just as many HEI modules go bad as the Chrysler, maybe more. So the "more reliable" argument really doesn't fly w/ me either.
Ehhh .... I'd bet you'd get the same reasoning, the other way around, from the Chebbie guys ... Sometimes, what ya like smears a lot of memory about what's happened or gone wrong in the past... ;)
Bottom line, if you know what you're doing, the Chrysler setup is just as simple to fix. The HEI is the quick easy cop-out to fixing the real problem, the wiring.
It's an IMPROVEMENT.
Simpler.
No ballast.
Get a 'better' spark.
Cheaper.
It's kinda like people that want to rip off EFI and go carbed because "that efi crap is just too hard to figure out"
Mmmmm .... Don't know about that one ... How many mechs these days prefer to plug in the computer and have it tell them exactly whats wrong, vs. having to be able to know about/fix ancient technology? (And make no mistake about it... Carbs ARE ancient technology) Hell, if ya wanna change something on EFI, you just plug in/reprogram a chip for the most part... Carbs... You have to make actual mechanical changes...
(And before you guys say 'Well NASCAR STILL uses carbs!! On 800 hp engines!' That's cuz they can physically monitor/inspect those. )
Speed Dragon
05-21-2009, 10:17 AM
It's an IMPROVEMENT.
Simpler.
No ballast.
Get a 'better' spark.
Cheaper.Again, you can do away w/ the ballast easily on a Dodge by simply swapping to a 12v coil. Better spark? I doubt it, the stock HEI coils are about the same output as ours. Throw an aftermarket coil on our system, BAM better spark. And there are all sorts of upgrade modules for the HEI, to help it in the upper revs, so it's not any better up there than our stockers either. Simpler? Not sure how, essentially you're only replacing the ignition module, the rest of the system is still there. You're right, I do carry a spare ballast in my truck (along w/ a VR :D). I've never had to use it though, and I've owned it since I was 17, so 11 years, no failure. I've replaced more voltage regulators than either ballasts or ignition modules, and I'm talking on other's rides too, not just mine. The main advantage of the HEI system was it's self containment, which goes out the window when wiring the module into ours.
Yes, I'm biased to Chrysler :) Doesn't change the facts though. How many ballasts have you actually had burn up w/o there being other existing problems? How ECU's have you had die on you in the last 20 years?
C1DoG
05-21-2009, 11:01 AM
Again, you can do away w/ the ballast easily on a Dodge by simply swapping to a 12v coil. Better spark? I doubt it, the stock HEI coils are about the same output as ours. Throw an aftermarket coil on our system, BAM better spark. And there are all sorts of upgrade modules for the HEI, to help it in the upper revs, so it's not any better up there than our stockers either. Simpler? Not sure how, essentially you're only replacing the ignition module, the rest of the system is still there. You're right, I do carry a spare ballast in my truck (along w/ a VR :D). I've never had to use it though, and I've owned it since I was 17, so 11 years, no failure. I've replaced more voltage regulators than either ballasts or ignition modules, and I'm talking on other's rides too, not just mine. The main advantage of the HEI system was it's self containment, which goes out the window when wiring the module into ours.
Yes, I'm biased to Chrysler :) Doesn't change the facts though. How many ballasts have you actually had burn up w/o there being other existing problems? How ECU's have you had die on you in the last 20 years?
Exactly, I have only replaced the resister and ECU once. And that was when I got the truck. I have had no problems since. And with stronger spark plugs, I have no problems starting it.
Speed Dragon
05-21-2009, 11:17 AM
Ahhhhhhh, C'mon Speed .... Lazy, I'm not.. :D
Hehe, I was just ribbing ya on that one :1poke:
bherder
05-22-2009, 09:25 AM
Hehe, I was just ribbing ya on that one :1poke:
Oh, I know (That's why I said nothing about 'old' ;) )
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)
Speed Dragon
05-22-2009, 02:15 PM
Oh, I know (That's why I said nothing about 'old' ;) )
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)
I'll agree w/ that :thatfunny
85_d250
05-22-2009, 02:18 PM
agreeing to disagree?
only in America:gr_patrio
volaredon
05-22-2009, 11:13 PM
As far as the "stronger" spark; Nooo, not exactly; Remember, electricity is one of those "path of least resistance" things, kinda like plumbing, and containing any liquid;
if it's easier for the electricity to jump the plug gap it will; if there's a cracked coil or dist cap or carbon track, its easier to go there than across the plug gap;
also like the old "hole in the bucket", only "so much" can leak out the hole in a given time (unless you can throw some "pressure" behind it, for force)
likewise, IDK how many of you guys have ever worked with an ignition scope; BUT when all is as it should be; fresh, unfouled plugs (gapped correctly too) good cap rotor wires coil etc, you'll see on the scope that it only takes 5-7KV (5,000-7,000 volts) to fire said plug in the cylinder; even if you have a coil that says on the box that it "fires in oil" or "puts out 50KV", it ONLY will if it is "required" to, because of a burnt out plug, etc. (the "force" to make it work harder)
All else being equal, replace your stock coil with any "super" coil, and recheck on the scope, and you'll see that it won't fire any higher voltage, than with the stock coil.
true, you can open up the plug gaps a bit, meaning that it now takes a higher voltage than before, the only thing that "super" coil does is give you more "cushion" over stock. So, "better" spark?? I don't think so; as long as it runs, on whatever ign parts you have now, unless they "break down", say when heated, (meaning they need changed anyway and a known-good, OE equivalent would then be an improvement over what you have) it is not gonna run any "better" on a different setup.
I had an MSD box on my truck for a while; yeah it ran, and dang decent too; BUT when the MSD box decided to "die" on me one day, going down the road, the stock original 26 year old Mopar ECU actually was an "improvement" over the MSD since the old box actually worked!!!
So, if you're still with me to this point, a WORKING ignition system with an HEI module, is NO better (or worse),than a system with a WORKING Mopar ECU; or a points system in good shape; though I admit, the points system needs more maintenance to KEEP it in good working order, of course.
but when up to snuff, (til the points decide to burn up) the engine will run every bit as well on points, as on whatever electronic setup you want; (personally, I think I've been able to get that "last little bit" of smoothness to an engine on points vs an electronic setup; hmmmm) but I'm not back converting, unless i go from Lean Burn to a standard Mopar ECU; but that's a whole other can of worms.........
so that said; remember the decal on all the 70s GM air cleaners that said something about "keeping your GM, ALL GM"???? Well, since I've never even OWNED a GM vehicle, I'm a Mopar guy, always have been. SO, I prefer to "keep my MOPAR ALLMOPAR"!!!! (I have heard of guys running Ford modules on Mopars before too; BUT as I said before........
85_d250
05-23-2009, 12:54 AM
As far as the "stronger" spark; Nooo, not exactly; Remember, electricity is one of those "path of least resistance" things, kinda like plumbing, and containing any liquid;
if it's easier for the electricity to jump the plug gap it will; if there's a cracked coil or dist cap or carbon track, its easier to go there than across the plug gap;
also like the old "hole in the bucket", only "so much" can leak out the hole in a given time (unless you can throw some "pressure" behind it, for force)
likewise, IDK how many of you guys have ever worked with an ignition scope; BUT when all is as it should be; fresh, unfouled plugs (gapped correctly too) good cap rotor wires coil etc, you'll see on the scope that it only takes 5-7KV (5,000-7,000 volts) to fire said plug in the cylinder; even if you have a coil that says on the box that it "fires in oil" or "puts out 50KV", it ONLY will if it is "required" to, because of a burnt out plug, etc. (the "force" to make it work harder)
All else being equal, replace your stock coil with any "super" coil, and recheck on the scope, and you'll see that it won't fire any higher voltage, than with the stock coil.
true, you can open up the plug gaps a bit, meaning that it now takes a higher voltage than before, the only thing that "super" coil does is give you more "cushion" over stock. So, "better" spark?? I don't think so; as long as it runs, on whatever ign parts you have now, unless they "break down", say when heated, (meaning they need changed anyway and a known-good, OE equivalent would then be an improvement over what you have) it is not gonna run any "better" on a different setup.
I had an MSD box on my truck for a while; yeah it ran, and dang decent too; BUT when the MSD box decided to "die" on me one day, going down the road, the stock original 26 year old Mopar ECU actually was an "improvement" over the MSD since the old box actually worked!!!
So, if you're still with me to this point, a WORKING ignition system with an HEI module, is NO better (or worse),than a system with a WORKING Mopar ECU; or a points system in good shape; though I admit, the points system needs more maintenance to KEEP it in good working order, of course.
but when up to snuff, (til the points decide to burn up) the engine will run every bit as well on points, as on whatever electronic setup you want; (personally, I think I've been able to get that "last little bit" of smoothness to an engine on points vs an electronic setup; hmmmm) but I'm not back converting, unless i go from Lean Burn to a standard Mopar ECU; but that's a whole other can of worms.........
so that said; remember the decal on all the 70s GM air cleaners that said something about "keeping your GM, ALL GM"???? Well, since I've never even OWNED a GM vehicle, I'm a Mopar guy, always have been. SO, I prefer to "keep my MOPAR ALLMOPAR"!!!! (I have heard of guys running Ford modules on Mopars before too; BUT as I said before........
i see...:YO:
Speed Dragon
05-23-2009, 07:39 AM
(I have heard of guys running Ford modules on Mopars before too; BUT as I said before........
Lol, the Ford modules are worse than any of them :thatfunny
impuresoul2k3
05-25-2009, 05:13 PM
Your Mopar is only Mopar? Don't we use a few GM parts in our cars/trucks? Power steering pump and column, map sensor(for the TD guys), temp sensors, etc. Or at least they're GM designs.
CaseyMoparRoss
05-25-2009, 11:45 PM
I am doing thi conversion and was just wondering, Could I use an aftermarket HEI module like mallory or msd? would it still work with the mopar electronic distributor?
3834B
05-26-2009, 04:13 AM
Lol, the Ford modules are worse than any of them
I've found the Ford (Dura-Spark) to actually be quite dependable.
Could I use an aftermarket HEI module like mallory or msd? would it still work with the mopar electronic distributor?
