Suggestions or tricks on changing the timing chain?

[97B2500CCV]

I will be having fun this weekend. I have several items to do to my van.
1. timing chain replacement.
2. water pump by pass hose replacement*
3. 180 degree thermostat change (helps to reduce the Magnum engine pinging)*
4. fuel rail change (found one with the fuel pressure test port)
5. and hopefully the IAT retuned power mod that many people are waiting on.

* Not needed yet but since I will be in there might as well do them and forget about them for a while.

Any one have any tips they learned when replacing the Magnum's timing chain?

[alloro]

My only tip to suggest is, don't spare the RTV at the two front corners of the oil pan gasket.

If you have slow/poor heat in the winter, you might want to add a restrictor inside the bypass hose. I inserted a piece of 5/8 heater hose in mine (along with some RTV to hold it in place). Then added an extra hose clamp on the bypass hose just before the intake where the 5/8 hose was inside. This restriction was just enough back pressure to slow the flow down and force more through the heater core. Doing this added 20 degrees to the air temperature at my vents.

[97B2500CCV]

Dully noted on the RTV.

I will add that restrictor since I will be lowering the thermostat temp by 12 to 15 degrees. Currently the output is about 130 degrees out the vents and lowering the thermostat may lower the vent output by a possible 20 to 25 degrees.

Thanks Alloro

[landyacht318]

Though I don't have a Magnum, judging by Alloro's description of the 2 corner pieces on the oil pan gasket, they are very similar at least in that regard.

Regarding those 2 pieces, and the RTV, I found that the RTV acted like a lubricant and would allow the gasket pieces to squeeze out of place easily. I used a high tack gasket sealant type of permatex, and glued them to the pan under some pressure first, then later swathed the area with RTV and installed everything.

I also had to do a couple of dry fits so that I was familiar enough to get everything in and tightened before the rtv skinned off on the h20 pump gasket.

One other problem I ran into besides an ezee out breaking off in the head( exhaust manifold bolt while I was there) was the new timing chain from Rockauto was too short for my LA engine, though the sprockets were right. Wonder if it was for a Magnum. That and the fact that the new cam had a different thickness where the sprocket bolted on. Joy Joy!

I had a 185 thermostat in at one time. My mileage suffered.

Happy racheting.

[alloro]

3. 180 degree thermostat change (helps to reduce the Magnum engine pinging)*

Regarding the mileage comment by landyacht318, he's correct, mileage along with engine performance will suffer. If it's pinging a lot, you could have some carbon build-up in the cylinders. A treatment of Seafoam could cure that. The alternative is to go to a higher octane fuel. I know it costs more per gallon, but on the flipside, if the lower temperature t-stat reduces your MPG, you fuel bill is going up anyway.

[stev]

If your state requires emission testing for your make and model van, the DO NOT change out the t-stat to a 180. Having the lower t-stat will reduce the engines temp to properly give enough heat to keep the O2 sensors clean and functional. In time, they will foul up.

Also, note that the t-stat 180 will provide less heating in the colder months. Way up north, the weaker t-stat is barely enough to defrost the windshield.

Plus, you may need a slightly hotter plug to burn the fuel to compensate for a cooler engine to maintain that fuel economy too. If so, then a higher performance ignition wire set and coil will be required.

Another note, the lower t-stat may not work properly with some PCM/ECM model years.

I've poked around these forums long enough in the truck forums to keep in tune with the lower t-stat. There are pros and cons to the whole issue.

Read up more on the t-stat mod before jumping into it.

[97B2500CCV]

:tup:Thanks for the heads up. The county south of me does emission testing, right now the one I live in does not. But I don't need to clog the cat or ruin the sensors either.

When I was at the parts stores yesterday one system called for a 192 and the other the 195. Any one know the proper one and if the 192 would be a better choice?

The pinging my engine has is at highway speeds. And it gets worse if I try to tromp on it. I have gone to the 93 octane fuel and that has stopped the ping and it seems to have increased my MPG by .8 to 1.2, which I like if I can be sure that the past three tank fill ups calculations are correct. But I know that the higher octane is not supposed to increase MPG.:confused:

Maybe changing the timing chain may cure the ping, I just do not know. The engine did not have much if any ping when I bought it 9k ago. It appeared about 3K and has slowly gotten worse. Doing the spark plug wire rerouting did help, new brass cap, rotor, and wires made no difference.

Another symptom my engine has that I noticed after replacing the cat is a sound that known in the reciprocating aircraft industry (piston engines) is a sound as though I have two engines that are out of sync (one engine pulling a little harder than the other) with each other at 55 to 75 MPH. It is as though the engine is speeding up and slowing down by about guessing 50 to 100 RPM's. I cannot describe the sound that it makes. I am thinking it is related to the timing chain, I hope anyway.

Over all the engine is very strong, leaks about 1.5 to 2 quarts of oil per 3K, no smoking.

[TiaraRamVan]

Yes, i have a few tips for changing the timing chain.

1. First, although Chilton manuals does not tell you, you have to remove the A/C and Alternater bracket. as well, i almost broke my dipstick tube while removing the bracket (they don't tell you that its bolted to that bracket)

2. Make sure you put EVERY bolt in its original place. because most of them are different sizes. most of all, the water pump. the water pump bolts also hold the top part of the timing cover on as well. saying that meaning, the outside water pump bolts old the timing cover, the center ones are short and stop in the timing cover and don't goe completely thru.
so make sure you make a cardboard box and draw a picture of the timing cover and water pump surface and then poke the bolts into it as you take them out.
if you don't know the bolt patterns for the parts to make a picture, use the new water pump and timing cover gaskets to trace around with a pen or magic maker to align the bolts on the cardboard.

3. Take the timing cover off carefully from the bottom or the oil pan gasket will break.
if you do break or tear the oil pan gasket, simply keep the groove part of the gasket that goes around the timing cover, use black RTV gasket maker silicone and use lots of it on the oil pan to timing cover surface.

4. although you don't need to take off the engine fan shroud to get to the front of the engine, i would, you gain ALOT of space to work and everything looks so exposed.
to remove the fan shroud, there are 6 bolts holding it on and it comes off in 2 pieces.
the bolts that hold it to the radiator are 7/16, and the ones that hold the two together are 3/8.

5. Chilton manuals say you need to remove the power steering pump to get to the timing cover, you don't, ignore that part.

6. with the 180' thermostat, i do recommend it, my 94 has one and it runs just below the 1/4 mark on the gauge at all times, hot or cold, pulling a trailer or not, never gets hotter than that ever.

7. use RTV black gasket maker silicone on all the gaskets and you won't leak anything.

hope this helps

[97B2500CCV]

Thanks TiaraRamVan, did you notice a difference in fuel economy after the T-stat switch?

[TiaraRamVan]

A little bit, but not much, when i changed my thermostat i also installed a K&N air filter, new spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and same day i had new muffler put on it, so i can't really make an perfect guess on how it will affect it you MPG's as i changed a lot of stuff. after everything, i only lost about 1-2 MPG, depending how i drive it. i make alot of short trips, so i do alot of city driving, stop and go traffic, etc. but i get anywhere between 14-17 MPG in the city, and about 20-22 on the highway as of now. i looked at your profile and seen that you have a '97 van and mine is a '94, so i do know the chrysler made some changes in those years, such as going to OBD II, smaller exaust manifolds, dual O2 sensors, and other small things like that that can affect a good estimate on how it will change the fuel economy in your van.
i changed my t-stat to a 180 because my van overheated pulling a trailer, and i pull trailers sometimes, so my van has to run cool.
as for the heater being affected by a change, it could. the coldest i have ever driven my in was -5 F' , and it kept me warm and defrosted the windshied, but it took about 6 miles of highway driving for the van to warm up.

thats my experience with a 180' thermostat3
hope it helped

[97B2500CCV]

Wow I wish I could get that mileage. I get 11.8 in town and 14.7 highway.:mad:
And that is slightly higher than the EPA newest chart for my van.

Temp wise I could handle that for here it has only gotten down to 6 degrees for about 3 days several years ago (I have lived here for over 6 years). Most times the coldest is in the mid teens.

I am concerned about the catalytic converter and O2 sensors due to mine running OBD-II system. They can be persnickety when things are not up to their preprogrammed specs.

Thanks you have been a big help.

[97B2500CCV]

Upon further research on the T-stat I leaning towards the 190 (or 192 if I have to) should be a happy median.

Stev there is even talk that down here in TX that the 180 has been known on some engines to cause the coolant to over heating and come out the over flow bottle. That and the possible mileage loss is not what I want.

[B-300]

I would flush the cooling system 1st and remove the block drains when done so all of the coolant will drain... some will end up in the oil pan if you don't remove the block drains.
Also I use teflon tape or other flexable sealant on the bolts that go into coolant passages.

[alloro]

But I know that the higher octane is not supposed to increase MPG.

That's incorrect, higher octane can increase both MPG and performance. The reason being, with less pinging the computer does not retard the timing as much to try and eliminate it.

[97B2500CCV]

Now something I have not figured out yet is how would the 97 Magnum PCM know if the engine needed the timing retarded? I have found that there no knock sensor on this series of engines. I have even looked over the engine PCM schematic.:confused:

[B-300]

Higher octane fuel has less energy per unit volume so unless your engine is designed and tuned to work with it, higher octane fuel will cost more.
Also the 192 vs 195 thermostat, one is calibrated in degrees celsus.. I forget which and tolerances are large enough that a 195 could be cooler than a 192.
I have an LA engine in my van and thought about putting bypass restricter in it for better cooling during the summer months or modifing the thermostat housing and using a bypass cut-off thermostat like many newer cars have.

[Dodgevanman]

3. Take the timing cover off carefully from the bottom or the oil pan gasket will break.
if you do break or tear the oil pan gasket, simply keep the groove part of the gasket that goes around the timing cover, use black RTV gasket maker silicone and use lots of it on the oil pan to timing cover surface.


Funny you mention that. The factory books want you to replace the engine oil pan gasket as part of the timing chain job. Yeah right.

Unfortunately my oil pan gasket snapped at the corners. When I was putting everything back together, I fit the broken piece back on the pan with some black trim adhesive. After it dried I put a layer of black RTV down and set the timing cover back into place. I let everything dry overnight and the next day finished the job. No leaks! :)

[Dodgevanman]

Now something I have not figured out yet is how would the 97 Magnum PCM know if the engine needed the timing retarded? I have found that there no knock sensor on this series of engines. I have even looked over the engine PCM schematic.:confused:

It's possible that the computer can adjust timing via the crank sensor. Just a guess.

[97B2500CCV]

Already started on the timing chain this evening. Cannot seperate the fan from the water pump. Seems that the knucle head that put the last water pump in did not bother to put the bolts into the pulley. Everything I tried did not help me loosen the fan from the pump.

Also tried to lossen the block drain bolts and they are frozen solid. May have to do an oil change again, oh well.

[TiaraRamVan]

I forgot about that when i posted my tips and tricks post, my fan would not come off either. appearently, you must have what i have, a Duralast water pump from Autozone.
When i got my van, the previous owner told me he put a duralast water pump on, well, the duralst brand comes with the drive pulley and water pump as an assembly and does not have bolts that hold the pulley on. i had this problem too. i tried crow bars, screw drivers, tire irons, and others to get off the fan, didn't work.
i had to use a big pair of channel lock pliers to grip on the pulley while turning the fan bolt with a cresent wrench.
if you don't have a big pair of channel locks, go to autozone or advance and see if they have the loan-a-tool thing and get a pair.

if i remember anymore i'll post it
hope this helps

[97B2500CCV]

Thank you for the info. I am hoping that I can just pull it as a unit for now. Now at least I know whom came up with the stupid (IMHO) idea. Oh well I will get back to it tomorrow if it does not rain and see how far I can go in getting this done.

[durangosilver]

Since your doing the timing chain if it doesn't have it already I would purchase the timing chain tensioner that replaces the camshaft retainer its about 35 bucks. The pinging to me sounds like the plenum gasket on the intake. I didn't see it but personally I would replace the water pump being as you have it down that far and a lower raditor hose. Pulling the lower radiator hose will drain the coolant fairly well. Search for the plenum gasket issue here. Usually along with valve ping the gas mileage goes down and you have a "mysterious" oil consumption. The viscous fan clutch shouldn't be stored flat it needs to be stored as it is installed. The oil in it can run into areas where it shouldn't be and ruin the clutch unit. Also the Autolite spark plugs 3923 seem to help with the valve pinging on these engines.

[97B2500CCV]

Don't have the timing cover off yet, but it is loose somewhat. Will try to continue tomorrow if the rain stops/holds off. Here is some problems I did find today. Thermostat housing has either been filed or something, got a replacement. And I have not seen this damage to the water pump before, what would cause this? I also noticed that the thermostat that I removed did not have the hole or bleed valve in it. New replacement does.

[97B2500CCV]

Did get the fan removed. Turns out just shove some bolts into the pulley holes and hook up the tools & remove.

And learned that it takes two people to remove the top fan shroud, not easy for one to work it from the top and bottom.

[landyacht318]

Man you need to learn how to use the Macro feature or manual focus on your camera for those close up shots.

Glad to hear your making progress though

[durangosilver]

The bleed hole in the thermostat is nothing to worry about. The old one is just probably a brand that didn't have it. Could be original. If you are talking about the pitting behind the impeller it is probably corrosion. Just make sure when you get ready to re assemble everything that you flush the coolant system and use a quality anti freeze with distilled water. Regular "tap" water can cause build up within the engine and heater system. I would seriously evaluate the intake plenum possibly leaking too, for pinging. You have part of the work done to already do the fix if needed. Also when you pull the harmonic balancer use a puller. Auto zone and places have a lend a tool program. If you beat on it with a hammer you may damage the material that bonds the outer and inner ring and it is also not good on the crank and bearings to pound on the balancer. Keep us posted. Also as an after thought with the miles on it check the balancer snout where the seal in the timing cover rides to make sure there is not a wear groove from the seal riding in it. If there is you can repair it with a micro sleeve, this will prevent oil leaks past the seal.

[97B2500CCV]

Man you need to learn how to use the Macro feature or manual focus on your camera for those close up shots.

Glad to hear your making progress though

Sorry about the clarity, camera has very small screen like 1.2 inch.

[97B2500CCV]

Thanks Duragosilver, did check the harmonic balancer after removal and the snout is in tip top shape.

Will check about the plenum and see what to do.

[97B2500CCV]

Well got rained out. Did get the cover off, replaced the chain and sprokets, and put the cover back into place. Here are some pic of the chain. Right side was tight and all I did was see how much flex the left side (looking from infront of the motor) had. New chain has almost no play in it.

[TiaraRamVan]

did you see any wear on the timing cover?

[97B2500CCV]

No, no shiny spots. All it had was the oil varnish. So thankfully I got it out of there before any other damage started.

[alloro]

You're going to oil that chain before putting the timing cover back on...right!?

[97B2500CCV]

Yes just had to stop with this rain event around here. Will remove the cover and oil it up. New cover gasket is metal with the silicon strips preinstalled. Due to the oil pan gasket being rubber I will not use the RTV. Made that mistake in the past with disastrous results. If the pan leaks I will just have to remove and replace the rubber gasket.

[citichap]

Don't forget to replace the water pump (new) while you are in there. My old water pump went out only two weeks after I replaced the plemum gasket. 1997 B1500 full size van. 3.9 engine.

[97B2500CCV]

Well got the following items done:
1. Timing chain replacement.
2. New sleeve on harmonic balancer.
3. Water pump by pass hose replacement.
4. 192 degree thermostat change, seems a little warmer then the 195 I removed.
5. Heater hose beside the t-stat housing.
6. Flushed the engine and heater core out.
7. New T-stat housing.
8. New upper radiator hose.
9. Berryman fuel injector/combustion chamber cleaner, 2 part system.

Due to the heavy and daily rain I was not able to do the fuel rail or the IAT Mod. Those will have to wait for another weekend, maybe in two to three weeks.

New chain made a difference even on start up time. Was taking 5 seconds, now 1 to 2 seconds to run.

Running the two part cleaner, one goes through the manifold the other in the fuel tank, I did notice that after completing the step one that the engine smoked for about two blocks on my test drive.

Heater core temp went from max at 140 to now 160.

Engine is smoother, quieter, and peeper than since I have owned it which will be a year at the end of this month.

I even "barked" the right wheel backing up the driveway, and it was not intentional.

EDIT: It turns out I spun both wheels backing up into the drive yesterday.

[TiaraRamVan]

Great you got it running, see what just a timing chain can do?
Also, has your gas mileage went up or down since the t-stat change?

[97B2500CCV]

Unknown on fuel mileage change yet, only 30 miles since changing the chain. I did not do the 180 T-stat change, I went with the 192 stat instead.

But would have to factor the combustion chamber cleaner, new chain and gears into it as well.

[97B2500CCV]

Filled the van's gas tank back up today. Only drove 99 miles this week and ended up with gas mileage of 10.8. Before the repair it had been around 11.5. But have also been testing out this engine repair and had one evening that I had to call for a power take off (which I was impressed of the response) due to not too smart drivers and road repairs around here.

Over all it looks like the fuel mileage should stay about what I had before.

The 192 thermostat (by a few needle width's) runs a little hotter than the 195 I had taken out.

My wife and I ran several errands today and she noticed how much quieter & smoother the engine ran.