Rant!! Venting!! ....

[bherder]

.... Or, How Not To Be "Con"-"Fused" ......

Ya know guys... I am SO freekin' SICK n' TIRED of any/everything being MADE IN CHINA these days, and what utter GARBAGE it is, I could (And have) just scream.

You all know what I mean, and I'm sure you've felt the same....

Here's what set me off... This time.....

2-3 weeks ago, started the Dodge up. -15 F degrees outside. (About -26/27 C for our Canadian friends) ... Flipped on the defroster and it ran for a split second and quit. OK, blown fuse... No biggie .... The fuse has never blown before and it's a damn-near new blower motor ... When things get that cold, they get very hard to turn and I could see it popping the fuse.
So I let it warm up under the hood... Give the blower motor a couple of raps and put in a new fuse. Everything is running fine and the blower is pumping out HUGE volumes of hot air....

Fast forward to the other day. Started the Dodge and flipped on the defrost. Nothing. Looked at the fuse and it LOOKED fine. So now I'm banging on things and getting out the test light, to start tracing things backwards.... After 15 minutes, I get back to the fuse-box and guess what? Power on one side and no power on the other. The fuse LOOKED fine however.....

I replaced the fuse and the blower fired right up.....

So here's what the deal was ... (See Pic)

The fuse, blew, not on the 'skinny' part of it, like it's SUPPOSED to ... It 'blew' where it's soldered (At least I THINK it's supposed to be soldered) to one of the end pieces! Well, isn't THAT just wonderful!

I just happened to have the 'old' old fuse still sitting on the workbench and it said "BUSS - USA" on the metal end of it (Had to use a magnifying glass) ..
The NEW 'old' one ... Said nothing. Just "20 A"

Sooooo ..... I take the boxes of fuses I have stored out of the glove box. I always keep a full box (5) of 5-10-20-30 amp fuses in the glove box... The box I put the 'new' fuse in the fuse box said 'MADE IN TIAWAN' ..... THIS is from 'BUSS fuses' ... Used to be 'MADE IN THE USA, St. LOUIS MO.' .. Like the older boxes I have say.

So look at the pic (Sorry, it's not that sharp, too close and the camera is MADE IN CHINA) ... you'll see that the fuse did not melt where it's supposed to melt .. The blob of solder on the end of the fuse sure did though ... and the boxes of fuses, the top one says 'MADE IN USA' and the bottom one says 'PIECES OF CRAP MADE IN "WHO CARES" BECAUSE THEY'RE PIECES OF CRAP'

I recently had to put a NEW starter in my son's Bravada (Olds) and even more recently the 'town work truck' (Furd Ranger) ... both NEW ... Were they GM or Furd starters? No. BOTH MADE IN CHINA. (From NAPA) We'll see how long they last.
TRY buying any piece of electronic equipment these days (Unless you're willing to spend an arm/leg) that ISN'T 'MADE IN CHINA' ..... ('MIC')
(Note... I bought a Curtis-Mathis 27" TV back in 1987 ... I bought it BECAUSE it was the only 'MADE IN USA' TV you could still buy back then .... My mother-in-law, to this day, still uses that TV and there is not a damn thing wrong with it... 21 years later....)
Try going into any store (Walmart/Shopko/Target/Sears/Circuit City/Best Buy/Anywhere/ and see if what you're buying ISN'T 'MIC' .... You can't FIND it! It's ALL FREEKIN' 'MIC'!!! I don't care if it's a $12 coffee maker or a $1,200 plasma TV, it's ALL 'MIC' .....

I'm SO sick of the garbage we're FORCED to buy because there is NO alternative.....

(Rant over ... sorry, I'm just pissed..)

[charlie1935]

I have had fuses do that before, even 20 or more years ago. One the big fuses under the hood of my 96 did the same thing, looked good but checked bad with the multi-meter. Here a while I bought a John Deere multi purpose tool (Like a Leatherman) and got home and looked at it and made in China dammit! :gr_patrio

[fins2fuselage]

Bherder and Charlie,

I can definietly relate! What's even worse than the sub-standard construction of the Chinese manufactured crap is when the Chinaco Inc. bigwigs decide that we just plain "don't need" this or that product anymore. My family has experienced this with everything from kitchen hot pads to liquid soap dispensers to auto litter buckets! Grrr . . .

So much for the great American "outsourcing" experiment . . .

Jeff

[fins2fuselage]

And, B, you mean to tell me that it gets down to -15 F in December in N.E. Washington?!?

Yikes! I thought that the Pacific northwest was known primarily for its rain, not for its frigidity!

Jeff

[Ramhemi03]

This would be why everything is getting built over there. Way cheaper and no safety of an kind. A human life don't mean S**T. Look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL1AgOqnYYE

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

F that......

[beatersdigest]

That video is ridiculous. What is even more ridiculous is the sad fact that we will continue to have just about everything made for us by people under those same conditions because it's cheaper to pillage a third-world working class. Nevermind that another million Americans are out of a job now.

[charlie1935]

We can thank the "free trade agreements" for the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country. :gr_patrio

[B-300]

Well you get what you pay for and this example seems to be only one of a few problems that NAPA is having by using foregien suppliers.
My fuse would be short if they hid the suppliers country of origin but they didn't.

[AP]

I know what you mean, That's why I'm a pac rat every summer when rummage sales are going. Every now and then I run across old Mopar parts still new in the box that are from Napa that are Made In The USA! I sold a majority of them on ebay in the past. There are people out there that will pay the extra dollar to get USA made for their vintage Mopar because they will know it will last longer. Just like right now I have in my possession a Starter Relay switch brand new in the box by Standard Plus ignition parts. # SR-105 Made In The USA! I haven't done a search if they are still available and made USA or not. I keep looking for these odds and ends and eventually somebody out there will want one USA made!!

[C1DoG]

And, B, you mean to tell me that it gets down to -15 F in December in N.E. Washington?!?

Yikes! I thought that the Pacific northwest was known primarily for its rain, not for its frigidity!

Jeff

Funny.. here I thought the same thing, and I Am from WA State. :thatfunny
Anyways Bruce is from the northeastern part of the state that every so often can get pretty cold. The rain you are talking about, usually happens on the western side of the state. which right now looks like the north pole. :thatfunny

[bherder]

And, B, you mean to tell me that it gets down to -15 F in December in N.E. Washington?!?

Yikes! I thought that the Pacific northwest was known primarily for its rain, not for its frigidity!

Jeff

Yeah, most people think that... But most people when they think of WA. they think of Seattle. Anything west of the Cascades gets a lot of rain, we get the cold temps and lots of snow. We set a record last week in our region for most snowfall in one day ... 28"
It's gets colder than -15 ... I've seen mornings where it's been -25 :rolleyes:
And believe it or not, the southern end of the state, down by the Columbia river, looks like the dessert!

[Ramhemi03]

:hijacked:

[fins2fuselage]

:hijacked:

Aww, B doesn't seem to mind . . . do ya, B?

Jeff

[dolfans]

well what about this then a company i use to work for make holesaws and they were made overseas. the boxes were made/printed and packaged here in the U.S. and on the box they could put on it made in the U.S.A.. that is so wrong

[fins2fuselage]

This would be why everything is getting built over there. Way cheaper and no safety of an kind. A human life don't mean S**T. Look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL1AgOqnYYE

RamHemi,

I forgot to say "Thanks!" for that video.

And you are darned right about the value they place on human life over there. You can bet that the cameraman risked his life to film that clip, as did whoever posted from China or smuggled it out.

I would say "We take so much for granted over here", but (as this thread demonstrates) we are already beginning to reap the bitter fruits of those Chinese workers' exploitation.

"Global Economy" is nothing but code for "generously spreading the misery both here and abroad".

Jeff

[bherder]

Aww, B doesn't seem to mind . . . do ya, B?

Jeff

Who me? Naaaaaaaw..... ;)

[bherder]

RamHemi,

I forgot to say "Thanks!" for that video.

And you are darned right about the value they place on human life over there. You can bet that the cameraman risked his life to film that clip, as did whoever posted from China or smuggled it out.

Jeff

GAAAAWD.... Could yo imagine sitting under that thing for probably 10-12 hrs a day just pulling pots out of it all day long and praying that whatever keeps that press thing from only coming down so far, keeps working?????

[GHS]

I recently did a rant in my blog about Chinese crap, so I'll just copy and paste it instead of re-typing everything. Not all automotive stuff, but the story is the same.

Tuesday, November 18, 2008
Chinese Junk
No, I don't mean the odd-looking little boat with the square sails...it's probably built to last, since it's not destined for the US market. However, all the rest of the junk manufactured in that country should be illegal to import.

Recently, I've had more than my share of their crap failing. Our year-old house was built with upgraded items in nearly every case, and apparently paying more meant nothing, because even so-called high-end items are now made in China.

Since we moved in, several light fixtures have either broken or burned out...two toilets have had bad valves...a switch in the microwave failed...a vent fan seized…the doorbell fell apart…nickel plating is coming off the door knobs...”top quality” cabinet hinges were defective when new, and ditto for the slides. The blinds don't work as advertised, nor do the door locks, and the HVAC system quit when a Chinese-made relay failed after three months.

A few weeks ago, I bought a new weed eater, and it didn't last a half-hour before it quit working. Last week, a sensor in Judy's car failed, and yes, it was another Chinese part. When two Chinese-made starter relays failed within days in my old restored truck, I put the corroded, 35-year-old American-made part back in, and it's working fine, so I guess I can live with ugly.

What really ticks me off is the number of items made in China that are probably never touched by human hands. Why can't we use those same robots and automated production lines to build things here so we can control the quality?

No wonder our industries are failing, and government is so screwed up…they’re both being run by certifiable idiots.


http://sandpoints.blogspot.com/

[B-300]

Now the Japanese companies are having the Chinese manufactor things such as Makita tools and Sony TV's... I won't by either now.
That storm brought snow down to about 1300 ft. in Ca. and temps down to the 20's on the inland coastal range.... shut down the "grapevine" (I-5).

[bherder]

This one's for fins ..... ;)

Yeah, that's my B2500 somewhere under that.... :D
Note there is only about 2" of antenna sticking up.....
'Global Warming' my ass.....

[acton mike]

I am old enough to remember when made in Japan meant cheap and junky

oddly enough, we have now come to expect made in Japan to mean good quality; people are falling over themselves to buy Toyota and Honda because of the quality

Many Honda's and Toyota's are built in North America and Those items are as of good a quality as the ones that are imported

But, capital (and therefore jobs) goes where labour is cheap and that is why North America was losing jobs to Japan who is/are in turn losing jobs to China and to a lesser extent India.

I bought a piece of equipment for my home work-shop the other day - made in China it is - relatively inexpensive it was
Not all that long ago, I was looking at the same piece of equipment that was made in North America and i could not afford it

So I bought the Chinese made piece; the alternative was to look around for a second hand item or do without and pay someone to do that particular piece of work for me this time - and the next time - at which point I would have paid more than the price of the imported piece of equipment

Oddly enough, I did not do anyone in North America out of a job because I would not have purchased the North-American item simply because i could not afford it

The world is changing whether I like it or not

Protectionism, does not work; if we in North America put tariffs and barriers up against imported goods, then other countries retaliate and North America cannot sell goods into other markets.

I do not have any solutions unfortunately

[charlie1935]

I agree on the "Global warming my ass". The average temperature here has been 4 to 8 degrees below normal since the last of august. :gr_patrio

[Speed Dragon]

Yup, Chinese products are junk.

[fins2fuselage]

'Global Warming' my ass.....

B,

A big "Amen!" to that, too!

It was 18F here in the NC isothermal belt yesterday morning, and 22F this morning -- good grief!

Jeff

[Megunticook]

Hey, that photo of Bherder's van is just about what it looked here yesterday morning--except we had more wind! And it was zero degrees!

Actually, global warming is kind of a misnomer--it's more like "global weirding," as in the climate patterns around the world are changing in unpredictable ways. Overall, the average temp. around the earth is rising--the data is pretty clear on that--but that doesn't necessarily translate to less and less winter on the eastern slope with each passing year, for example (that's what they call your side of the mountains, right Bherder?)

I know, there's a lot of silliness, hype, and "chicken little" antics around "global warming," but make no mistake, the Earth's climate is shifting in some pretty significant ways right now and carbon dioxide emissions are a significant factor in that shifting. I'm no scientist, but my brother was personally involved in atmospheric physics back in the nineties and he said it was pretty obvious even then. Nowadays the scientific community is largely agreed that climate change is happening in a big way and there will be some major consequences down the road. I don't think anybody knows for sure specifically what those consequences will be (don't believe anyone who says they do know), but they will be big.

[charlie1935]

If I remember correctly, when I was in grade school (in the late 1940"s) they said that the earth goes through periods of warming and cooling. I see no reason that should change. Man is not going to control nature.:gr_patrio

[B-300]

So I didn't mention that Japanese quality went up, then down as they "farmed" there labor to the Chinese. (Who were the culprits in thes rant.)
I do agree with the idea of going to rumage of even estate sales to find "stuff" that was made in the USA as opposed to the imported junk, especially tools. Also 2nd hand items have withstood the test of time.

[bherder]

Charlie is absolutely RIGHT! The earth DOES go through changes and nothing we puny humans do affects it at all. (Well, I suppose if we set off 1000 nuclear warheads all at once, THAT might)

It's interesting to see, if any of you ever watch History or Discover Channel, The planet (Especially in Europe) from about 1300 to 1500 AD was in the grips of what they are calling a 'Mini Ice-Age' ... Hundreds of thousands died... Which up until the beginning of the 1800's we were just getting back to somewhere near 'normal' .. (But what IS normal?)

So, reason being, if we're not far removed from a mini Ice-Age, of COURSE the average temp is going to go up.

Ed, I agree that we're going through 'Global Weirdness', but this idea that 'MAN-MADE' green-house gasses are the cause of it all, is absolute JUNK-science.
(My son, just finished a class .. a '101' class, in Crimminal Psychology at WSU .. Up until the mid 19-somethings, they thought that daily treatments of electro-shock therepy, would 'cure' the criminal mind... Cure 'violent behaviour' ... Cure gays of being 'gay' ... Cure 'deviant' tendancies...)

This is all in the mind of the Al Gores of the world. Being as the 'GREEN' liberal shits of the world constantly point fingers at the internal-combustion engine, if they READ their own ... *ahem* ... Theories ... They should be pointing fingers at cow farts (Which they do) .... But you can't be 'green' and pick on critters.

It's all Mother-Nature going through the cycles that it does. Nobody knows WHY this stuff happens, nor will we ever know why. It just happens.
And no amount of pedal-cars, or less cow farts, or shutting down Chinese pollution-spewing factories will change it. We're just little tiny ants on this planet, and short of being able to light off several volcanoes, we're nothing.

Here's a pic I took today. The (F'ing) F-150 the towns says I must drive woudn't start today. So I had to go to the 'backup' Furd. But I first had to dig it out and fix the leak in the front tire. I left the snow on top, just to get a 'gauge' on how deep it got in the last TWO weeks.

Global Warming my ASS!!!

[B-300]

100 warheads is comparably to a large sun-spot and there have been many of those in the past years when the sun was supposed to be at solar minimum.... There is also talk about the poles on the sun flipping which would make things even weirder whether-wise.
Nice job at clearing the truck.

[charlie1935]

That's one helluva fungus growing on top thet Furd!!;):gr_patrio

[volaredon]

Yuh; back to the original rant; I am looking at an intake to convert my truck to Magnum heads; the one I come across the most often is the "Crosswind" made in China. I'm holding out for an Edelbrock or an MP. I'm bidding on a used MP right now that is MORE than a new Crosswind!

[bherder]

Oh jeeeeeez.... Is this what we will soon be reduced to? Supposed High Performance parts Made in CHINA?? When do you suppose that will be the ONLY option? As even when 'classic' HP parts that have been 'Made in the USA' since day one, will out-source their parts? I'm getting a sick feeling here...

Ya know, about this time last year, I went on a 'binge' and replaced all the light bulbs in the house with those curely-cue 'energy-saving' ones. You know that ones that are supposed to last 5 years?? (I didn't care so much about saving energy as I did about not replacing a bulb for 5 years)
Well, a year later, and I've replaced a third of them.
Can you guess where they were made?

[charlie1935]

They cost more than a regular bulb too, don't they? :gr_patrio

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

alot more..I did the same and have two left of the original seven...i still have the broken ones because i heard you cannot just toss them in the trash...I smell conspiracy here...like the chinese are getting rid of their haz mat stuff to use..lead, mercury...etc

[fins2fuselage]

Oh jeeeeeez.... Is this what we will soon be reduced to? Supposed High Performance parts Made in CHINA?? When do you suppose that will be the ONLY option? As even when 'classic' HP parts that have been 'Made in the USA' since day one, will out-source their parts? I'm getting a sick feeling here...

Ya know, about this time last year, I went on a 'binge' and replaced all the light bulbs in the house with those curely-cue 'energy-saving' ones. You know that ones that are supposed to last 5 years?? (I didn't care so much about saving energy as I did about not replacing a bulb for 5 years)
Well, a year later, and I've replaced a third of them.
Can you guess where they were made?

B,

Stock up on incandescent bulbs (those are the ones which don't look like little white dog turds) while you can. I am told that Sylvania still makes them in the USA; all of the others are "Hecho en Chine".

As of 2011 or '12, all we will be able to purchase are the cussed Chinese CFLs -- by Federal decree, of course. "Green" bulbs produced by pollutant-spewing Chinese factories and laden with toxic mercury -- makes perfect sense to me.

Jeff

[bherder]

Stock up on incandescent bulbs (those are the ones which don't look like little white dog turds) while you can. I am told that Sylvania still makes them in the USA

Yeah, I think I will... Will start reading boxes more carefully.
I looked at the boxes of some GE 300 w bulbs I recently bought (Overhead shop lights) and they said 'Assembled in USA' .... Which I'm sure means 'Yeah someone HERE put them together, but they're still made from crap Chinese parts' ....


; all of the others are "Hecho en Chine".

As of 2011 or '12, all we will be able to purchase are the cussed Chinese CFLs -- by Federal decree, of course.

Oh GAWD ... More 'Big Brotherism' .... I'm still waiting for them to tell us (Soon I'll bet) that when driving the family station wagon, everyone MUST be wearing full-face racing helmets, a 7-point racing harness and a haans (SP?) device. OR that rigs over 15 years old just can't ever be registered again because of pollution/saftey reasons...


"Green" bulbs produced by pollutant-spewing Chinese factories and laden with toxic mercury -- makes perfect sense to me.

If that's true, Maybe I'll buy cases of regular light bulbs... Might make a killing on ebay ;)
Wonder what they'll do about 3-way lamps (Of which I have several)? And what about heat lamps, like what you might have in a bathroom? Or that painters use?

[charlie1935]

I got a rant too! The wife got me a Garmin 255W GPS and the damn thing gives the wrong highway numbers on some roads. One the roads locally has been the same route # for over 50 years. Going one direction it's right and going the opposite way it's wrong. It gives a intersection in town that was done away with 5 years ago and I have found one interstate it gives wrong # in New York.:tdwn:

[bherder]

I got a rant too! The wife got me a Garmin 255W GPS and the damn thing gives the wrong highway numbers on some roads. One the roads locally has been the same route # for over 50 years. Going one direction it's right and going the opposite way it's wrong. It gives a intersection in town that was done away with 5 years ago and I have found one interstate it gives wrong # in New York.:tdwn:

And just think Charlie .... Someone, somewhere, knows EXACTLY where you're at, at any given point in time.
Call it paranoid... (Remember ... Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't REALLY out to git ya! :D ) ....
This is exactly why I refuse to own a cell phone or a GPS device of any sort.
And why I have no 'club cards' to anything, and why 90% of my transactions are in CASH.
(Hey .... I'm 10 miles away from living in the Idaho panhandle ... You know how LOONEY we all are... :D :D :D )

[charlie1935]

Well, I do have a cell phone and the Freightliner I drive has satellite communications any way. They can tell within 6 feet of where it is. I really don't give a damn if they know where I'm at anyway. :D :gr_patrio

[bherder]

Well, I do have a cell phone and the Freightliner I drive has satellite communications any way. They can tell within 6 feet of where it is. I really don't give a damn if they know where I'm at anyway. :D :gr_patrio

Mmmm ... Well, I do ... But then again, I'm just paranoid... ;)

[charlie1935]

Most of the trucking companies of any size have them any more. Has good and bad points. :gr_patrio

[bherder]

Oh GAWD ... More 'Big Brotherism' .... I'm still waiting for them to tell us (Soon I'll bet) that when driving the family station wagon, everyone MUST be wearing full-face racing helmets, a 7-point racing harness and a haans (SP?) device. OR that rigs over 15 years old just can't ever be registered again because of pollution/saftey reasons...


AH! I feel a cold wind a-blowin'....
I'm sure that any of you who has bought parts from Summit have gotten this also, but maybe some of you haven't.
I can see an ugly head rearing up... Getting rid of old junkers (Hey!! We'll PAY YOU!) ... now just a proposed voluntary 'feel-good-green-save-the-planet' thing.
But I can see a day (call me crazy) when it's MANDATORY. Hope this isn't in MY lifetime. They'd have to pry my Dodge from my cold dead hands.....

-----------------------------------------------------

Dear Fellow Enthusiast,

As a SEMA Member Company, we have received an Urgent Legislative Action Alert from the association. You may be interested in this legislative alert and the possible impact it will have on your hobby.

The Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) is a non-profit trade association composed of more than 6,800 member companies involved in all aspects of the automotive industry, from manufacturers to car clubs and race teams.

The SEMA Action Network (SAN) protects your hobby from unfair or unnecessary legislation on national and local levels. Through distribution of information and the collective voice of automotive enthusiasts and businesses, the SEMA Action Network has successfully impacted legislation concerning scrappage laws, equipment standards, registration classifications, emissions regulations, and more.

The following information is directly from SEMA. If you would like to contact the lawmaker, follow the instructions in the alert.


Thank you for your time,
Your Friends at Summit Racing Equipment





Washington lawmakers are drafting a large economic stimulus package to help create jobs and rebuild infrastructure. They want to include a nationwide scrappage program which would give U.S. tax dollars to consumers who turn-in older cars to have them crushed, as a misguided attempt to spur new car sales. The lawmakers need to scrap this idea.

The stimulus package is being drafted right now. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) wants to introduce the bill on January 6 and have it approved by Congress by January 20, so that President Obama can sign it into law after he is inaugurated.

Contact House Speaker Nancy Pelosi IMMEDIATELY To Oppose Cash for Clunkers!
Call: 202-225-0100
Click here to send an electronic message: http://speaker.house.gov/contact/
Talking Points
Feel free to use any of the statements below as a starting point for your message to Speaker Pelosi.

I am [calling/writing] to urge lawmakers not to include a “Cash for Clunkers” provision in the economic stimulus bill. Owners who turn in vehicles for crushing would receive a "minimal" payment to purchase a new car. This is a misguided attempt to spur car sales and claim that the country’s air quality or fleet fuel mileage is being improved.


I work for [company name] located in [city and state]. My company is part of the specialty automotive industry, an industry which enables consumers to enhance their vehicle’s appearance, performance, comfort, convenience and safety. “Cash for Clunkers” programs deny our small businesses the availability of older cars necessary to develop and market their products and services. The programs will hurt my company and our customers.


“Cash for Clunkers” programs threaten enthusiasts nationwide with the loss of valuable parts and parts-cars for repair, restoration, and customization projects. The programs also risk destroying classic, historic and special-interest vehicles, our American heritage.


Cars turned in for scrappage often barely run, or are rarely-driven second or third vehicles that have a minimal impact on overall fuel economy or emissions.


“Cash for Clunkers” programs will reduce the availability of affordable transportation and repair parts used by low-income drivers. It will also compete with the Salvation Army, the Purple Heart and other charities that rely on vehicle donations to raise money.


“Cash for Clunkers” ignores better policy options. If Congress wants to act, support for repair and upgrade is a better choice and a win-win for consumers, dealers, manufacturers and repair shops. Significant emissions and fuel economy improvements can be achieved in older vehicles through relatively simple and inexpensive means: repaired/replaced exhaust systems, tune-ups, etc.


We hope we can count on you to reject “Cash for Clunkers.” Thank you for your consideration on this very important matter.
If you choose to send a message to Speaker Pelosi, please send a copy of your message to SEMA also:
E-mail: briand@sema.org
Fax: 202/783-6024

[charlie1935]

You can count that left wing liberal excuse for a woman from California to try to put the screws to just about anything that isn't 100% "green" in tree huggers terms. :gr_patrio

[bherder]

Charlie, that's "Kalifornia" ....
I keep praying the whole state explodes.

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

If i remember, in Japan you can keep a car for ten years...after that there is some sort of "happy" fee that you pay each year that gets extensive just to keep the car.

[doodlebug]

I have heard that Wal Mart is importing some of its beef from china.:huh: I know that we quit buying meat products from there a long time ago because of the horrible taste and the graininess of the beef. So, it don't just apply to auto products.

[bherder]

ARRRRRRGH!!!!!! I can't TAKE this crap anymore!! ARRRRRRRGH!!!!!!

Just did a 'relay' mod for the heater/blower motor to my truck.... Everything ran tits-freekin'-bitchin'..... Flipped the switch tonight and nothing
....

Pulled the glovebox to inspect ... The in-line fuse wire I installed...
The FUSE was FINE ... THE WIRE itself was FRIED! This was a BRAND NEW wire I installed, the spade lugs on each end SOLDERED! This wire hasn't even run for more than an HOUR!

I bought a BUSS in-line fuse holder... Happened to still have the package lying on the bench top .... GUESS WHAT??????

"MADE IN CHINA" ....

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

china, hmmm...just say no.

[B-300]

If it says "Made in China" it falls into the category of "It's nearly broken, so it will need to be replaced anyway.
I wouldn't buy anything from Walmart, especially if my life depended on it.... Food as an example as it could be leaded or full of tri-cynaric acid (melamine).

[beatersdigest]

Just say NO to China (while we still can).:D

[bherder]

The sad part of all this is, it's getting to the point where if you don't accept 'Made in China' you just can't get it.
Case in point... Just bought a set of chains for the town plow truck. Bought them from Les Schwab (About the biggest tire dealer here in the north west)
The tires are a real oddball size, 225/70x19.5 (Something like that, I forget now) and for dually's ... Basically what you see on the UPS trucks... And I wanted them with the 'ice-biter' links..... So, they had to be ordered.
And I specifically told the guy that "I don't care what they cost, and I don't care how long it takes to get them, but I do NOT want any 'Made in China' crap.."
He told me.. "Well, sorry, but I guess you don't want any chains then.."

So, $350.00 later and 'Made in China' is what I got. I had NO choice.

[charlie1935]

It's a damn shame! I stopped at the Summit store in Ohio yesterday to get a fuel pressure testing gauge. Only $45.00. Turned the package over and there it was, "Made in China"! :tdwn: I didn't get it! :gr_patrio

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

i am envious...you live near an ACTUAL summit store?

[charlie1935]

Nope, I drive a truck and get by there once in a while. :D :gr_patrio

[L5wolvesf]

Chrysler is in talks with Fiat - so "Made in China" may be replaced with "Made in Italy".

Ciao :)
L

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

cool with gas certainly heading back up (due to state fed and local gas tax) maybe they will make a 4X4 vespa...how do you say "git er done" in italian?

[bherder]

Chrysler is in talks with Fiat - so "Made in China" may be replaced with "Made in Italy".

Ciao :)
L

Yeeeeks .... Should we be saying 'Well, I guess that's better than GM' ???
At least it's not the French.

[bherder]

Oh JEEEEEEZ!!!!! BIT AGAIN!!

Every once in a while I'll see a 'sale' on plastic zip ties at Home Depot.
You've probably seen them also. They come in those big plastic jars and you get like 500 of them for $10.00 .... So I bought one about a year ago.
It's just been sitting in the shop until I used up all my old ones. So I opened up my fresh jar of zip ties yesterday and the little tongues that are supposed to 'ratchet' when you tighten them up kept breaking off. I had to go through 5 of them to get one good one.
Looked on the 'fine print' on the label and you guessed it. Made in China.
They can't even make some stupid little piece of plastic right!! :cuss::VHOT:

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

hey no kidding same thing happened to me just two weeks ago...black zips from Lowes. I would thread them through and the tongues would snap off...made in China.

[1972-D100]

Yeeeeks .... Should we be saying 'Well, I guess that's better than GM' ???
At least it's not the French.

Hey it shouldn't be that bad, the make Ferrari's!!!

[B-300]

About the cash for clunkers... When you first posted this I looked-up the proposal and it was for those buying new vehicles as a trade-in. I doubt any of use have the $$ to by a new vehicle so we could get a credit on our classics.
Buy Amercan when possible.... It will out live several chinese replacements.

[charlie1935]

Hey it shouldn't be that bad, the make Ferrari's!!!

I want a 6 litre DOHC V12 replacement engine for my 87!:D

[volaredon]

I learned LONG ago, that if you are gonna buy a tool or piece of equip to buy the best that you can afford; that you're better to borrow that true once in a lifetime usage thing. (start borrowing it twice, then becomes 3X, and you better look into gettin your own) but; if you can justify BUYING one, buy the BEST you can get your hands on; to buy the "cheapie" because you are "only gonna ever use it, this 1 time, it ain't happenin' because in my experience, I wind up returning it, burnt-up, at least 3 times to do "just that 1 job".

I have been thinking of getting me a metal cutting chop-saw for a while now. I do get into some mild welding and fabrication now and then. and with the number of Sawzall blades a job usually takes (plus all the time spent cribbing/clamping the piece so you don't get hurt) I could have paid for one a few times. I'd been looking at the farm auctions but the last few have been farther between and cheaper and cheaper no name crap that's about used up.
I had a small, couple hour job, that I just finished up (tell you about it somewhere else, its something that I should never have been in a situation of having to do) involving my welder and some angle iron. but that couple hour job would have been a 1/2 day job or more with the Sawzall. So that was my "justification" that it was "time" I bought myself a chop saw. That, and seeing a "sale" on one the other day, didnt hurt the reasoning process.

I wound up buying a 14" Milwaukee chop saw today. I saw it yesterday and almost got it then. But I figured I'd better check it out 1st, to SEE exactly what kind of a "sale" it was. Lowes; more money. and all China crap.
Farm and Fleet; on the DeWalt, the sticker said the co. was in USA, but nothing on the tag, said that the that the machine was;(or wasn't) also on sale but higher. the same one I got, same exact model number, they also had also on sale, a 'lil less than the DeWalt but more than the one I saw yesterday. All 14" ones (not an apples/oranges deal there)

So, being that the one I saw yesterday was only 2 blocks away in the direction towards home, I went back there (Motion Industries, used to be called Berry Bearing) and saw they had 1 left. So I bought it;

Milwaukee; "Nothing but Heavy Duty", right? My last several electric (and rechargeable battery too) power tools I've bought have been milwaukee. After I got tired of burning up "Sears' Best" Crapsman garbage, I started buying all Milw. electric tools, and have yet to replace any of them, for being "shot" or worn out. All made about 2-1/2 hours north of me, in their namesake town--or so I thought anyway.
I've known the person that rang me up for oh, at least 10-12 years. She kinda did a double take when she punched in the number and the price that was marked. Supposedly the marked price was below cost; now Ive had people tell me that before and then find it down the road for less. but being as I've known Tina as long as I have (and the cost/sale price thing is really no skin off of her nose) I tend to believe it.

So tonite I go in the garage and unbox my new "toy"; I get all the styrofoam and plastic off of it, and guess what; MADE IN CHINA and there was nothing on the box to indicate that.
Son of a B!tch! WTF???? and I went outta my way to buy that brand, as not only have they always been good strong tools, but good strong AMERICAN MADE tools. I guess I look elsewhere when I need electric tools, once again. or borrow them til I DO find good used ones, at the sale barn. thats why I am still without a drill press or a bearing press. Several drill presses came and went last year but I passed every one of em by for that very reason.

[bherder]

hey no kidding same thing happened to me just two weeks ago...black zips from Lowes. I would thread them through and the tongues would snap off...made in China.

Well, I had enough of this shit today.... I tried to use ONE zip-tie out of my 'Bargain-bucket' .... After breaking 9-10 in a row, I just took my 'Bucket o' Ties' and threw it in the garbage.
Went down to the local ACE hardware store and bought a bag of 'NOBLE' brand zip ties (Made in USA... I made SURE of that)
These are the kind with the little metal tongue, rather than the plastic one.
They, were not cheap though ... It cost me $25.00 for an 'assortment' bag of them. 40 of them all together.
But you know what? I used 3 of them and every one was rock-solid. I mean, grabbing on the end of the tie and yanking on it with pliers, and it still held, solid. AND .... I TRUST they'll hold.

[L5wolvesf]

Well, I had enough of this shit today.... I tried to use ONE zip-tie out of my 'Bargain-bucket' .... After breaking 9-10 in a row, I just took my 'Bucket o' Ties' and threw it in the garbage.
Went down to the local ACE hardware store and bought a bag of 'NOBLE' brand zip ties (Made in USA... I made SURE of that)
These are the kind with the little metal tongue, rather than the plastic one.
They, were not cheap though ... It cost me $25.00 for an 'assortment' bag of them. 40 of them all together.

Herd,

Take the bad ones back to Lowe's and tell the store manager that they are`selling crap AND that you bought good ones from another store. That kind of thing gets retailer's attention.

L

[bherder]

I probably should have thought of that before I threw them away...
But now it means picking all 480 of them back out of the trash can, mixed in with other garbage... I don't think I have the patience.. ;)

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

tell your sons there is a rare guitar pic you lost in there and let them tear into it.

[bherder]

tell your sons there is a rare guitar pic you lost in there and let them tear into it.

Hahahaha!!!
Naaaw, my kids are to smart for that.... I'd have to tell them there was a 56' Strat that was once owned by Stevie Ray Vaughn in there... And when it didn't turn up, they'd kick my ass... :D
(Like I'd put an ax like that in the trash can in the first place... :D )

[charlie1935]

I stopped by the candy store (Summit Racing) yesterday and got a Accel dist.cap for the 87 to replace the China made Borg-Warner. Guess what! Not made in China. Canadian made. Damn near $25 ! :gr_patrio

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

Charlie..I been running those caps rotors and wires and i swear by them...Canadian is fine by me...Remember when you would cross the border and your Dodge was known as a Fargo? All you early 70s Dodges check your door it will say fargo on it.

[Speed Dragon]

cool with gas certainly heading back up (due to state fed and local gas tax) maybe they will make a 4X4 vespa...how do you say "git er done" in italian?

I'm watching for a Hemi Fiat convertible ;) It would be like the new AC Cobra :cool:

[charlie1935]

I don't have a problem with Canadian parts. Yes, I knew about the Fargo.
:gr_patrio

[thejudges69]

I hope i don't catch a lot of slack for this post and i'm sorry if it offends but personally i'm not a big fan of some american made stuff. The more and more the world goes on the more and more the quality of american products goes down the tube. Myself i blame the american people for this, It seems that the greed of the american people (including myself) is what brings a lot of hurt on all of us and drives the companies to mexico. A couple years ago i hauled machine dies out of a hoover plant in canton ohio to el paso texas, the plant was being closed cause it got bought out but the new owners offered a new contract with a paycut and the union refused the contract, so instead of taking it and keeping jobs for the people they closed the plant and hundreds of people lost there jobs cause they were greedy for the money.

Now on the other hand i'm not all for foreign products either. I agree there are somethings that are just completely for shit. seems like they are made in the basement of Wong Wei's flat house. and they last about 10 minutes and takes a shit. Honestly harbor freight is one of my biggest pet peeves. i bought a nibbler there to do some aluminum work and it didn't last 10 minutes. Its all bullshit and we all can agree but bottom line i think is that it don't matter where its made if the place that makes it isn't passionate about there product then it will never last.

Also i've been into several auto plants around the country from GM, chrysler, and ford to, the new nissan, honda and toyota plants in alabama and mississippi. and honestly you could eat off the floors at the foreign plants, in fact the honda plant in alabama sprayed my truck and trailer tires off before i was aloud to back in to unload. The american plants are just a disaster, I have yet to see one near as clean as the foreign one. And they sometimes work at the speed of a burned out light bulb.

My rant isn't against the products its against the workmanship and pride in there work and job. i think foreign or domestic products all have there flaws but in different instances one is better then the other. Besides the japs are way ahead of us in computer technology.

again i didn't mean to offend anyone or upset anyone just adding my log to the fire.

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

Charlie...I reread my post..sorry ..I was not busting your...I was agreeing with you and adding some info...in retro it did not look that way...sorry again.

[AP]

Besides the japs are way ahead of us in computer technology.




It's funny how you say that. I have to agree. I tried to talk about this Japanese technology subject to my fellow co- workers and some agreed and some simply got mad. For instance, I have a co-worker that says that he will never drive a Japanese pos. He will stay with his Chebby and pass it on to his children and so forth. He was pretty upset and serious about it too! I told him well, you better go in the living room and snatch those controls out of your kids hands, disconnect that Wii and toss it out the window along with your PS3! He gave me a dirty look! It didn't matter if we were talking about Japanese cars or products. Was waving his hands around cussing,etc. After I said that..he shut his mouth.

[charlie1935]

No problem, diver. I didn't take it that way. I've read a lot on the history of the Fargo. :gr_patrio

[charlie1935]

I agree with you, judge. I hauled a lot of Chrysler aotomotive along with some GM and Ford. A good days work would kill most of their so called workers. :gr_patrio

[bherder]

Ya know, I think (watch out ;) ) that a lot of the frustration about things these days is the 'luck of the draw' kinda thing. It used to be (And is still true, but not always) "You Got What You Paid For
". Seems now, you just never know anymore.

Used to be, that 'Made in Japan' was considered junk and literally laughed at. Now they make some of the best quality rigs and electronics on the market.
On the other hand (Especially electronics) unless your buying some top end gear, even their name brands are made in China now. Last time I bought a DVD player, I headed straight for the Sonys. ALL MIC. In fact EVERY DVD player out of the 3 dozen or so for sale, they were all MIC (This was Best Buy)....
On the other hand, 15 years ago, I bought a new Geo Metro (Suzuki). I needed something new, cheap ($9,000) and got good MPG, as I had a 150 mile round-trip to work. But ...I've still got that rig. Aside from normal wear-n-tear items (Tires. brakes, etc) The only things I've ever had to fix, were a bearing in the tranny, water pump, and a bearing in the alt. It's got 200,000 miles and still runs great. Go figure. 43 mpg too....
On the other, other hand, while I'm all for Made in USA, I'd would never buy a Harley. You can spend 1/2 the $$ on a Japanese bike and it will out-perform a Harley, in any category.
Here's another analogy.. Some of you know, I'm somewhat of a musician. I prefer Fender basses. Fender used to BE THE standard for quality and craftsmanship. Now, you have 3 'levels' of Fender. You have the MIC ($2-400 "Squire 'by' Fender)
crap... Which IS crap .... You have the made in Mexico .... ($4-700) or you can still get made in USA ... ($1-5000 depending on model) I can't tell ANY difference playing the Mexico vs. USA, and the hardware is identical. So I spend $600 on a bass that is equal quality of a $1500 bass.
Now to top it all off, I've got a Curtiss Mathes TV I bought 23 years ago. I bought it, because it was the last 'Made in USA' TV you could buy. My mother-in-law now uses that TV (And it's on about 12 hours a day) and it still works flawlessly. Has never needed repair.

I know I'm going around in circles here, but my points are:
You don't always get what you think you're getting -
You don't always get what you pay for -
Sometimes you get way more than what you paid for -
Made in USA isn't always best -
Sometimes it is, but who can afford it? -

Luck of the draw... ;)

BTW, yeah Harbor Freight for the most part is junk, but to be fair, I've got a 1/2" air impact, I've had for 10 years now ($25.00) and still works perfectly. Of course, I've also got a Craftsman 1/2" impact my dad gave me (50 years old) and that still works perfectly also....
I think judge is right about unions and workers pricing themselves out of work... I mean, is there any reason some guy should be making $25.00 an hour, with EVERY benefit in the world, for doing nothing more than putting lug nuts on Fords all day? And no matter how crappy a job he does, because of unions, it's almost impossible to fire him?

[thejudges69]

BTW, yeah Harbor Freight for the most part is junk, but to be fair, I've got a 1/2" air impact, I've had for 10 years now ($25.00) and still works perfectly. Of course I've also got a Craftsman 1/2" impact my dad gave me (50 years old) and that still works perfectly also....
I think judge is right about unions and workers pricing themselves out of work... I mean, is there any reason some guy should be making $25.00 an hour, with EVERY benefit in the world, for doing nothing more than putting lug nuts on Fords all day? And no matter how crappy a job he does, because of unions, it's almost impossible to fire him?


Oh i agree Bruce, my dad bout a bandsaw from harbot 20 plus years ago and its still cutting today and our drill press is from there as well 20 plus years old and still works great. I still buy somethings there. i recently bought some sockets and ratchets and there working fine. I think some of there things have a little big to be desired but on the other other other hand some of there things you just can't beat the price.

Also i agree with the union. I didn't wanna come out and say it. Personally i am 110% anti union. i'd never wanna be apart of something and i'd never encourage any of my family members to do so. The nurses union did absolutly nothing for my mom when she lost her job of 40 years at the same hospital and she was number 3 on the scenority list in the entire corporation and they did nothing. I've had dealing with rigging companies and literally had to wait to be unloaded because the crane man was there and the floor man was there but the guy that hooks the straps wasn't there yet. Honestly i blame the union for the problems going on in the big 3 automakers right now. Although i also blame the CEO's of them big companies as well for gettin rich doing nothing. It really wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if they all filed bankruptcy and had to start all over. I told my wife my next truck once i get rid of my avalanche will be a toyota tundra or a nissan titan, just cause the warranty is better and the craftsmanship is far more superior.

Also bruce i understand about the suzukis. My all time favorite vehicle was my 81 volkswagen pickup and i'd buy another VW today if i could find one in good shape. Again just a rant.

[snhudurango]

Last time I bought a DVD player, I headed straight for the Sonys. ALL MIC. In fact EVERY DVD player out of the 3 dozen or so for sale, they were all MIC (This was Best Buy)....



Hey, Why you making fun of the MIC's!!! Leave the Irish out of this! LOL

[moe7404]

moe in wichita ks in ( i was working at boeing ) 1996 i read an artcial in our local newspaper it said boeing stock holders voted to NOT make any human rights criteria for doing business in china. doesnt sound like much till you think that lets china supervisers treat workers ANY way they want. this could include taking the worker out back and shooting them, and the BOEING superviser cant do any thing about it. a long time ago boeing put up a plant $650,000,000 all china workers, that can be treated ANY way they want. it took them 7 years before they made a door that would work. why would boeing put up with that? cause china would not buy airplains if boeing didnt put in a plant.

[volaredon]

I am sorry I have never ever had a vehicle NEW enuf to even have a warranty on it when I 1st acquired it, and I tend to agree with the Union BS; they have far worn out their welcomes, and have gone extremely too far beyond their original intent; I was in a union for a brief time in '91-92, and had a beef with the owners of the dealership that I had worked at then; I went to the steward, who agreed with me; together we went to the Union rep, who shrugged and said "what do you want ME to do about that"? to which I replied "I want you to do what I pay dues to have done, and solve this issue for me"! to which the Union rep said "I have no way of doing that" so as a result I wound up quitting. and have yet to work for a Union place, since. My wife was in some Grocery Store worker's union when we met in the late '80's and (1) she made JUST enuf over then-minimum wage to pay the dues (I thought Unions were supposed to get beetter wages for the workers) and (2) got stuck with every Saturday and Sunday from 6P-midnight regardless of how much she complained or to whom.

but back on the subject of cars and trucks, if I'm worried about buying a vehicle based on Consumer Reports or length of warranty, maybe the rest don't NEED such a long warranty for a reason!! and sorry, even if I gotta buy old/used for the rest of my days, I don't see myself buying a Toyota Nissan or Honda product unless (don't see this happening) I have reason to move to Japan! Yeah, I know, there are some things that we unfortunately have no choice BUT to buy product made elsewhere, as long as I have that choice in vehicles, I'm buying American. I just wish that I didnt have to buy Chinese/Taiwan etc maintenance parts for my American vehicles. but I will call from parts store to parts store and leave stacks of parts behind on the counter after they pull them from the shelves, and go down the road, to buy as much American made stuff as possible.

[doodlebug]

I hope i don't catch a lot of slack for this post and i'm sorry if it offends but personally i'm not a big fan of some american made stuff. The more and more the world goes on the more and more the quality of american products goes down the tube. Myself i blame the american people for this, It seems that the greed of the american people (including myself) is what brings a lot of hurt on all of us and drives the companies to mexico.

I agree completely and it has been going on for some time. I remember back in the mid/late seventies I was in the military at Ft. Bragg, NC. Several of us had been detailed to drive the "new" CUCV vehicles (M1008 Chevy, M880 Dodge) down to the supply point to have "factory" workers repair severe water leaks these vehicles had been having. I mean these vehicles were, for the most part, pieces of junk. I remember the factory worker bragging about his HUGE pay check to some of us guys as we were sitting around waiting on them to apply some type of goo sealant all over the vehicle. I don't remember exactly what it was, but I remember it was huge, something like 25-30.00 per hour and that was a lot in the seventies. One of them pulled out his pay stubb and was showing us and I remember saying to him "they pay you that to make these pieces of shit"! He didn't take too kindly to that, but it was he who was having to re-do the shoddy work that had been done on these vehicles at the factory. I'm telling this to re-emphasize the greed thejudges was talking about. These people did not care about the quality of work they were performing, but rather the size of their paychecks. Today they have just about screwed themselves and the entire factory right out of existance. I still try to buy AMERICAN whenever I can (and I absolutely avoid anything made in chine), but I also keep this memory in the back of my head. I think the current world financial crisis, export of AMERICAN jobs, etc., is (or should be) a wake up call to AMERICANS. We need to rethink our position within the global market and strive to regain the reputation for quality of goods that was an AMERICAN hallmark.

[thejudges69]

but back on the subject of cars and trucks, if I'm worried about buying a vehicle based on Consumer Reports or length of warranty, maybe the rest don't NEED such a long warranty for a reason!! and sorry, even if I gotta buy old/used for the rest of my days, I don't see myself buying a Toyota Nissan or Honda product unless (don't see this happening) I have reason to move to Japan! Yeah, I know, there are some things that we unfortunately have no choice BUT to buy product made elsewhere, as long as I have that choice in vehicles, I'm buying American. I just wish that I didnt have to buy Chinese/Taiwan etc maintenance parts for my American vehicles. but I will call from parts store to parts store and leave stacks of parts behind on the counter after they pull them from the shelves, and go down the road, to buy as much American made stuff as possible.


I agree but disagree at the same time. My brother worked at a toyota dealer for a while when he got out of the chair force. He said it was nothing to see a car come in with 280K on it and he'd go through the maintenance records and see that since new it has had nothing done but routine services and a few minor fixes here and there. I believe that the foreign made cars offer the better warranty not cause they need it but because there confident there products will last that long without major problems. As to where the Big 3 only go to 36K on the warranty cause after that they don't wanna hear about it. If american made products are so good why aren't they giving the big warranty. Then again maybe they are now and i'm just not up ti snuff.

Lastly Its a shame that people only want to buy american made cars. Whats so shameful about it is that people don't look at the fine print on the vehicle parts. they say made in mexico, made in china or made in taiwan or made in korea. The only thing american on them is the assembly and sometimes the tires but thats not so anymore either. I'm pretty sure the only tires made in the states anymore are BFG and goodyear. When i go into the plants and haul there machines in and out. I talk to people and they tell me what they make. Dashboards for toyota or seat tracks for nissan or engine parts for honda. and so on. I read a rant earlier regarding a borg warner distributor cap. It was saying about it being made in china. Well not to burst your bubble but on some GM products thats OEM equipment and Accell is not. Borg warner still makes transmissions for several of the big 3 cars. In all honesty in my opinion I think if you buy a GM Ford or Chrysler product you are buying a foreign made car. To me theres more american in the foreign names then the big 3. Like i said before i'm not for or against either one. i take what i can get and go on. In fact on my truck i use bungee cords that are made in Sri Lanka.....why...... cause the american made ones are made of a lower grade of rubber, they don't retract when there cold and they break under to much pressure. They are the same price for either one. But the foreigns are just much better. i run Yokohama tires on my truck and Hankooks on my trailer, Why cause i've had great results out of both of them. On the other hand. When i rebuilt my engine i used genuine detroit diesel parts that are made right here in america, and i put a clutch in my truck thats made by setco corporation right in paris, TN and my parts in my transmission and rears come from Eaton Fuller corp. right here in America. To me its all about what you have the best luck with. Yes also i agree sometimes you get what you pay for. but sometimes even paying the extra couple bucks can cost you in the long run.

Again Just ranting not trying to make anyone upset.

[DiverDwnPowrRam]

well not to say anything..but Eaton, Detroit Spring, is a very good quality company. If they made rubber dog turds, I would say that would be the place to shop.