While I had my instrument cluster pulled out of the dash to replace the upper speedo cable, I decided to disassemble it and clean it up.
Surpirse! This truck is on at least its second ammeter, as evidenced by a burnt-up amp needle which was rattling around loose inside the instument pod. The current ammeter (pun inteded) looks good and its wires were quite tight, but it, too, had "melted" into its stud hole (positive side) and that positive stud is already loose where it was peined to its contact. I am starting to consider converting to worship at the Altar of the Divine Voltage Meter.
So: has anyone done such a conversion? Is there a voltage meter from some other application which will fit into stock the Dodge cluster properly? I really don't want a "hang-on" meter.
And what modifications to the stock wiring harness are required for such a conversion?
If I can't go "in-dash" with this fix, what steps should I take to ensure that the ammeter likely won't do this again?
And what was wrong with the '78s' ammeters, anyway? I have had a '72, a '74 and another '78. Guess which among them was the only one to have "crispy ammeter" problems. What did they change on the later trucks to cause this?
Jeff
Megunticook
09-27-2008, 06:42 PM
I trust you've already seen this: http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml
I plan to add a voltmeter to my rig (while keeping the ammeter); my understanding is that all that's required is one lead of the voltmeter connected to the main power circuit and the other to ground (or perhaps the voltmeter grounds through its body--probably depends on the specific type). Somewhere there's a custom shop that makes a voltmeter that "fits" the ammeter space in the cluster and looks factory. I don't have a link but if you google I bet you can find it. I think there's an online article from one of the Mopar mags that mentions it.
Am I the only ammeter holdout left? Yikes, I'm starting to think twice.
I don't know the differences in the later ammeters, but from what Bherder has said it sounds like they may have more plastic while the older ones like mine are more metal. But I'm really not sure. It definitely seems like Dodge, like most of Detroit, was economizing in foolish ways throughout the seventies and early eighties.
Megunticook
09-27-2008, 08:43 PM
Just out of curiosity I did a quick Google search. I found something you might want to pursue: http://rt-eng.com/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Didn't see it on this site, but somebody on a forum post mentioned that this guy had created a "matching" replacement gauge for the ammeter. Be worth and email inquiry.
I still think there's some other shop that has one, though. Wish I could remember where I saw it mentioned.
fins2fuselage
09-27-2008, 09:49 PM
Thanks, Megunticook.
Jeff
bherder
09-27-2008, 11:21 PM
Hey there fins, I was going to write on this in another post, but didn't have time till now.
Yeah, part of the late(r) 70's trucks (And some cars too) was when they switched over from a metal basket the cluster fits in, to a plastic one.
If the wires that connect to the ammeter on the plastic one become loose (which isn't hard with the crappy speed-nuts they used on some of them) or the connection becomes dirty, that positive post will heat up, and if it's hot enough to melt the plastic, it'll just make it looser and makes the problem worse.
There are a couple of things you can do to beef it up.
First is get a metal basket from an earlier truck, up to 75? 76? I think? I did that on another truck once and if I remember right, I had to drill a hole or two, but other than that it was a 'drop in' fit. Make sure you get the isulators to keep the posts on the gauge from touching the metal basket also.. Pretty important ;)
Second is on the gauge it'self, you'll notice that the posts are just this kinda' half-assed swedge fit. I've seen on other gauges where the posts have been pretty loose. Yeah, they'll be tight when everything is assembled, but I still don't like that. I put a thin brass nut (10-24) on each post and tightened them up. It'll make the gauge sit just a tad higher, but when everything is assembled, you'll never notice it.
After the gauge is assembled through the basket and PCB, I used a couple more brass nuts and tightened them up. Probably over-kill on my part, but I wanted to make SURE nothing was gonna loosen up. Then it was the wires, lock washers and nuts again. I couldn't think of any way to make it more bullet-proof, and so far so good..;)
Volt meter is very simple. Mount, black wire to ground and red wire to a switched voltage source. Easy stuff.
Don't know of anyone who makes a volt replacement gauge that would sit in and look like the factory gauge. If ya find them lemme' know!
Megunticook
09-28-2008, 08:03 AM
Make sure you get the isulators to keep the posts on the gauge from touching the metal basket also.. Pretty important ;)
I don't recall ever seeing any "insulators" on mine--you mean something that fits over the end of the studs? Have a picture?
bherder
09-28-2008, 10:00 AM
I don't recall ever seeing any "insulators" on mine--you mean something that fits over the end of the studs? Have a picture?
Don't have a pic, and it's been quite a while (a few years actually) since I've done it, but i'm pretty sure I remember there being some sort of plastic/fibre washers with collars that fit on the post/studs between the gauge and where the posts/studs went through the holes in the metal basket. Kept the posts/studs centered through the holes so they wouldn't touch the metal basket...
fins2fuselage
09-29-2008, 09:55 AM
Well, I Googled "Dodge truck volt meter conversion" and every search variation thereupon, but no luck. This is no doubt because I am "Google stoopid".
Any other suggestions? Or can one of you Dodgers make Google walk-and-talk better than I? The answer is probably "Anybody can, Jeff!"
Jeff
Megunticook
09-29-2008, 01:02 PM
Any other suggestions?
Did you email the guy whose website I linked you to? Word on the street seems to be that he's developed a voltmeter that looks stock.
bherder
09-29-2008, 02:41 PM
Well, I Googled "Dodge truck volt meter conversion" and every search variation thereupon, but no luck. This is no doubt because I am "Google stoopid".
Any other suggestions? Or can one of you Dodgers make Google walk-and-talk better than I? The answer is probably "Anybody can, Jeff!"
Jeff
Now .... I could be wrong Jeff, but I seriously doubt your gonna find what you want. If it was for a Furd or Chebbie, there'd probably be a ga-zillion of them out there.
BTW, as good as Google is, sometimes ya got get to about the 10th page, before you maybe find what you want... ;)
fins2fuselage
09-29-2008, 11:31 PM
Did you email the guy whose website I linked you to? Word on the street seems to be that he's developed a voltmeter that looks stock.
Meguticook,
I sure did. No reply as of yet. I guess I'll have to try again.
Bherder,
Meanwhile, I did shop around for a metal basket per your suggestion, and I found one on E-bay. Will an early metal basket which has a fascia opening of (roughly) 2" X 7" for the radio be able to handle my 3 1/8" X 8" radio? The question may sound stupid, but I wonder if that part of the basket's frame behind the fascia has a bigger opening than the fascia itself. I have asked the E-bayer to send me photos of the back side of the radio area so I can see whether it looks like it will handle the big radio, or if I may be able to "open it up" on my own and still have it work properly.
Jeff
bherder
09-30-2008, 09:18 AM
Not really sure what to tell you on that one... the metal basket should be the same thing as the plastic one, only metal. The hole in the basket where the stereo goes is pretty big. I saw a mid-70's Dodge truck once that had one of those big Infinity AM-FM-Cassette-CD player combos from a late 90's Dodge van in it. The guy told me that the mounting holes from the new stereo matched perfect with his old truck and he didn't even have to modify anything to mount it other than open up the plastic on the dash panel a bit.
I would guess that there is enough room to put just about anything you want in there, but you may have to make an adaptor or templete for it to bolt up proper...
What's the guy on ebay want? I've pulled those from boneyards before, for like $3.00 each.
fins2fuselage
09-30-2008, 01:38 PM
Mugunticook,
I just recieved a response from Scott. He said that he had never done such a conversion before, but he thought that he could. He wants me to send in the entire instrument cluster. I am a little uneasy about being his "guinea pig", but if his price is right I may give him a try.
Bherder,
I finally got "ambitious" and removed the fascia on my '72 just to see what I could see. The radio opening was OK, but everything else was wrong. Those early metal baskets are rouunded at the top corners, with no provision whatsoever to mount the '78's fascia at the outer ends. It looks like more trouble than it would be worth to modify it, and I would have to use an older truck's entire dash top in order to convert mine to use its basket and fascia, so I will probably just stick with my plastic basket unless/until somebody comes up with a "magic bullet" for me.
Thanks for trying.
Jeff
fins2fuselage
09-30-2008, 11:28 PM
Not really sure what to tell you on that one... the metal basket should be the same thing as the plastic one, only metal. The hole in the basket where the stereo goes is pretty big. I saw a mid-70's Dodge truck once that had one of those big Infinity AM-FM-Cassette-CD player combos from a late 90's Dodge van in it. The guy told me that the mounting holes from the new stereo matched perfect with his old truck and he didn't even have to modify anything to mount it other than open up the plastic on the dash panel a bit.
I would guess that there is enough room to put just about anything you want in there, but you may have to make an adaptor or templete for it to bolt up proper...
What's the guy on ebay want? I've pulled those from boneyards before, for like $3.00 each.
Bherder and Megunticook,
Thirty bucks, and the metal basket is not even close to mine. He lists its application range as '72 - '76. I wonder if a '77 might have a metal basket . . .
Scott Sutton from Real Time Engineering got back to me on a price for the volt meter: $150. :YO: (sigh) I guess I'll just take my chances with the ammeter and my plastic basket. I will, however, be taking Bherder's suggestion regarding the use of brass nuts on the ammeter studs, and I will be wiring-in a 50A auto-reset "maxi-breaker" (fully insulated) to the positive ammeter stud. I get 'em from Waytek Wire (waytekwire.com), and they should be a "mandatory" update for all Mopar wiring "hot spots". They sure cured the problem areas in my '70 Chrysler when nothing else would. Just let me know if anybody wants some part numbers.
Thanks for all of the help, guys. Please let me know if you think of anything else which might help.
Jeff
Megunticook
10-01-2008, 04:54 AM
Scott Sutton from Real Time Engineering got back to me on a price for the volt meter: $150. :YO: (sigh)
Hmmmm, I guess the post on that forum I saw was wrong, they guy said that this Sutton fellow had already developed a gauge. I wish I could find that other Mopar article that mentioned another source for these...I'll bet they'd be pricey, though...definitely aimed the show-car guy who worries if his exhaust hanger is painted the corrrect factory color.
I get 'em from Waytek Wire (waytekwire.com)
I love that place, where I get most of my electrical supplies, too.
Please let me know if you think of anything else which might help. On my ammeter I rehab. I just did everything I could possibly do to minimize resistance in those connections: got the 2 studs shiny clean with emery cloth, replaced the wire with new 10 gauge SXL, crimped, soldered, and heat tubed new ring terminals, used new stainless lock washers (the kind with external teeth) and nuts, and coated everything lightly with dielectric grease. You can see the studs in the upper right corner of this image:
http://edgeis.com/graphics/projects/truck/instrument-panel/cluster-detail.jpg
The circuit breaker is a good idea, I should do the same (I assumed the fusible link in the engine compartment would protect me, but apparently not).
I plan to install an aftermarket voltmeter at some point, just to help me monitor the charging system closely.
Incidentally, does your truck have a/c or a lot of accessories? How many amps does your alt. put out? A lot of the alt. problems happen with a/c and other accessories on the newer trucks drawing heavy current through the ammeter.
One way you can reduce that is to rewire your headlamps with relays--mine now draw their power directly from the alt. output stud, saving the ammeter circuit that extra load (not to mention the light switch; plus the headlights are brighter and won't dim at idle).
Good luck!
fins2fuselage
10-01-2008, 07:25 AM
Megunticook,
Thanks for the tip about the headlight relay; I hadn't thought of that. Did you wire the power lead directly to the alternator stud? I wonder if it could instead be wired to some ignition-switched voltage source -- no more dead battery due to "leaving the lights on"!
Since my ammeter wires are not burnt, I decided to leave them "as-is" and simply clean the eye terminals. I fabbed-up a 10GA jumper lead about ten inches long to which I silver-soldered stainless steel terminals for #10 screws. I will secure one end of it to the ammeter positive, and the other end to my insulated 50A breaker which will be located where I can "get at it" without tearing the whole instrument panel apart (just in case). If I cut a few turns of electrical tape off the factory harness, I can then get the ammeter power lead down low enough to mount it to the other breaker lug.
The truck does indeed have A/C, but I don't think that it has any other accessories which would demand a particularly heavy electrical load unless I am towing with it. I don't know exactly what the alternator output is, but I am guessing 63 - 70 amp like most Mopars with A/C had. It definitely is not a 100-amp Leece-Neville or anything of that sort.
Thanks for all of the help.
Jeff
P.S.
I just remembered: I promised you exhaust hanger photos and I didn't deliver. I'll try to take some and post/pm them today or tomorrow.
J.
Megunticook
10-01-2008, 08:29 AM
Thanks for the tip about the headlight relay; I hadn't thought of that. Did you wire the power lead directly to the alternator stud? I wonder if it could instead be wired to some ignition-switched voltage source -- no more dead battery due to "leaving the lights on"!
Yes, a ring terminal on 10 ga. SXL that runs directly from the output stud to the relays (30 amp glass fuse spliced in, of course), which are mounted on the passenger side of the engine compartment. Very short run of wire between alt. and relays, as well as between relays and lights, which means negligible voltage drop (unlike the stock harness and switch, which creates enough resistance to make significant voltage drop, hence the dim lights at idle).
If you wanted an "idiot proof" system that prevented you from leaving lights on when the key is off, you could rewire your light switch so that it was fed only when the ignition is in the "on" or "ACC" positions. You would still connect your relays directly to the power source, though...since the "gate" which opens and closes the circuit is now the relay rather than the switch on your dash.
I can post a wiring schematic if you like. It's not a difficult mod.--just a lot of crimping. soldering, and heat shrinking (I had to do everything double since I have snowplow headlamps also).
bherder
10-01-2008, 09:46 AM
Thirty bucks, and the metal basket is not even close to mine. He lists its application range as '72 - '76. I wonder if a '77 might have a metal basket . . .
Must be... The one I did, I pulled a metal one from the boneyard from a truck that had the 'newer' dash (Late 70's, with the 'wings' on the dash bezel)...
Even if that guy had the right one, I wouldn't have paid $30.00 for it though...
But I'm used to 'Pick-a-Part' prices ...:D
Megunticook,
Thanks for the tip about the headlight relay; I hadn't thought of that. Did you wire the power lead directly to the alternator stud? I wonder if it could instead be wired to some ignition-switched voltage source -- no more dead battery due to "leaving the lights on"!
Yes, the headlight relay is always a good thing. This is how I did mine...
(Yes it's a monstrosity, but it's all my 'hunting squirrels with an elephant gun' theroy..)
These photos are with it 90% finished.. Had a couple more wires to hook up.
I have a relay each for low/high/off-road light bar/off-road bull bar....
the low/high beams each have a fuse (My reasoning that if one should happen to fail, I'd still have the other) and the off-road lights are on circuit breakers.
The headlight relays are accuated by the headlight switch, the off road, with toggle switches on the dash, and power to all lights fed directly from the battery (Which after my amp guage bypass is being fed directly from the alt output) Meg's right, it does make a very noticable difference..
I hope you don't need that elephant gun when the squirrels chew up some of that nice wiring.... them vermints got to my '78 van after it sit for a year.
bherder
10-01-2008, 09:23 PM
Heh heh heh .... Thanks for the comp.....
The varmits shouldn't get into it... I drive it about once a week....
Keep's the rat's nests and wasp nests out of it.... :D
fins2fuselage
10-01-2008, 10:20 PM
Megunticook,
Yes, please post your schematic.
Shots of exhaust hanger arrangement on '72 have been taken, will post tomorrow.
Jeff
bherder
10-02-2008, 02:14 PM
For what it's worth, this is one I made a while back....
Mine shows just one fuse for high/low beams, but it's very simple to fuse each, if you want.... The relays are VERY common 30 amp relays that are used in just about everything these days. Those little square 'plug-in' type. You can buy them new for $5-6.00 each or get a handfull of them from the boneyard for a couple of bucks. I used these type on my electric fan setup. They have worked fine. I just used the 'godzilla' relays on my own headlight relay system, just because I had a bunch of them... Hope this helps.
Megunticook
10-02-2008, 09:08 PM
My schematic is scaled to the wiring diagram in the FSM, be hard to post legibly in a small web graphic for this forum (I'll send you a PDF if you like).
But it's the same basic idea as Bherder's, except the power feed is from the output stud of the alternator rather than the battery.
On mine the dimmer switch is connected directly to the relays--I guess it's the same with Bherder's but I wasn't clear on that from looking at the schematic.
Other tips I can think of: use 10 ga on the main power feed to the relays and 12 gauge to the lights, including the grounds (and make sure your grounds are very solid if you want max. performance...I ran mine to the same body ground bolt that the battery negative terminal is connected (overkill, I know).
I used a 30 amp inline glass fuse on the main power feed. Other than than it's pretty basic stuff...you will cut down on the current travelling though your ammeter, though.
buck99
10-03-2008, 08:52 AM
I pulled a fuse/relay center off of a minivan to use in my truck. It makes a neet package and keeps the relays and fuses together with all the proper size wiring already done. :)
I haven't installed it yet but this is what it looks like...
bherder
10-03-2008, 07:13 PM
Heh heh heh Buck....
You stole the idea right out of my mouth ;)
Actually, that's a VERY slick idea. After buying my son a Caravan, and seeing the 'Mission-Control-Central-Power-Buss' I was thinking 'This would be GREAT to adapt it to our ol' rigs'... You're right, it makes everything very easy and 'centralized' to get to. Not only that, it gives a perfect venue for add-ons.
Maybe one day, I'll get one from 'Pick-a-Part' and stare at it on my workbench for a while. On the other hand, we could wait for you to figure it all out and share with your buddies.. :D:D:D
buck99
10-05-2008, 10:44 AM
Maybe one day, I'll get one from 'Pick-a-Part' and stare at it on my workbench for a while. On the other hand, we could wait for you to figure it all out and share with your buddies.. :D:D:D
Ya, I'm still in the "stare at it on my workbench" phase. I hope to get it done this winter...:) :)
