Need Help Please [Archive] - Dodge Talk Community Forum

izaana

01-21-2008, 05:17 PM

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee65/DewMan88/DownesStNELowellMIChristmasDay20070.jpg[/IMG] Hey there everyone,
I could use a little advise, I'm kinda stuck. I haven't done anything with my 1977 Dodge Poqwer Wagon D10 that I just bought Christmas Evetruck yet as far as fixing/working on. I plan on waiting til summer and some extra money, plus I still need to get a factory service manual (I am totally green and new to working on automobiles) But I have went out to the garage to start it every week, with no problems, other than a little cold and needs cranking some before it starts, especially in this recent extremely low temps, but it did start. Yesterday I drove it down the driveway to load some wood on after cutting down a tree for firewood. Now today I went to start it again for the same purpose and twice I tried cranking it over (which is normal) and then the third time it just made a loud very rapid clicking noise. I went to Meijer in Lowell and got some jumper cables, thinking the battery went dead? but that didn't help, still clicking very rapidly. Father in law said something on the phone about maybe a gear in the starter box??? and told me to manually try and turn the motor over by tugging on the belts, did not do any good, still clicking. I am lost as to what it could even be, much less how to fix it. And paying to get it somewhere is out of the question. Do you have any ideas about what it could be and what to do about it? I will go nuts with out even being able to start it and not knowing what to do?? Thanks alot for any help you can give me,
Brandon

bherder

01-23-2008, 09:41 PM

Try crawling underneath and bang on the starter housing a few times with a hammer (Something between a 2 oz ball/peen and a 5 pound sledge)

It may be froze or you may have a 'dead spot' on the starter.

You also may want to make sure you cables (Batt to relay - Relay to starter) are clean and tight....

izaana

01-23-2008, 10:17 PM

I think I have figured out where the relay is (don't know what it is or what it does, but know where it is) But I don't know where the starter is?

izaana

01-23-2008, 10:18 PM

I think I have figured out where the relay is (don't know what it is or what it does, but know where it is) But I don't know where the starter is?

DiverDwnPowrRam

01-23-2008, 10:44 PM

driver side underneath looks like the old style 2 pound coffee can that disappears into the bellhousing...I am not a proponent of banging on the starter....it does work most of the time. I like to remove the bellhousing dust cover and manually turning the flywheel.

bherder

01-23-2008, 10:51 PM

I am not a proponent of banging on the starter....it does work most of the time.

That's cuz you don't live where it can get 20 below ... :D :D :D

izaana

01-23-2008, 11:10 PM

I thought the starter was on that wall that seperates the engine from the cab of the truck....told you guys I am green...lol But what is a bell housing and a fly wheel? will a mm socket set be enough or do I need some other tools? 4 am comes right around the corner, I'll have to catch you guys on the flip side.
yellowkota2 is close to me here in MI but not close enough, darnit!

bherder

01-23-2008, 11:36 PM

I thought the starter was on that wall that seperates the engine from the cab of the truck....told you guys I am green...lol

No prob ... We all start somewhere..... ;)

Crawl underneath the truck ... DRIVERS side..... look towards the rear of the engine... You'll see, as Diver says, something that looks like a 2-lb coffee can.
It'll have two wires connected to it. A small one and a big one. Bingo, starter.

But what is a bell housing and a fly wheel? will a mm socket set be enough or do I need some other tools?

You need SAE (`Merican) tools. Very least a socket set and wrench set....
YEEEEES, some metric stuff fits on `Merican stuff, but if your gonna keep this rig, you'll need the right size (ALL the way around) tools...

4 am comes right around the corner, I'll have to catch you guys on the flip side.

Heh .... Better you than ME .... :D :D :D
yellowkota2 is close to me here in MI but not close enough, darnit!

Speed Dragon

01-24-2008, 07:52 AM

Sounds to me like the starter took a dump on you, although the battery cables could be bad also. The starter solenoid is on the driver side inner fender under the hood, the positive battery cable runs to it, then another cable (same size) runs down through the frame to the starter. There is anther little wire that runs from the solenoid to the starter also, if you bridge the small wire to the big (use a flat screwdriver or a pocketknife or something) it should turn over if the cable and starter are fine. Just make sure you have it out of gear first :D

If it is the starter, it's not bad to remove, you'll need a 5/8 wrench or wobblehead socket. It's just 2 bolts. If you have a reputable rebuilder in your area, I take it to him to have it rebuilt, rather than just buy an A-store replacement. You'll have a much better starter IMO.

Diver, turning the flywheel won't help if the brushes are sticking ;) But I agree, hitting it w/ a hammer is not the long term fix, just a way to determine what the problem is or get you by a week or two till you can buy a new one.

izaana

01-24-2008, 09:42 AM

Speed Dragon

01-24-2008, 06:07 PM

you think getting a starter rebuilt is better than buying a new one?? I priced them yesterday when I picked up my battery from Napa (they charged it for me) and the price for a new starter for a 1977 Dodge Power Wagon D100 is only $48Yeah cause at least you know where it was rebuilt :) And I doubt that 48 bucks is getting you a brand new starter, more likely a re-manned one. Or a new Chinese POS ;)

Megunticook

01-25-2008, 07:28 AM

I priced them yesterday when I picked up my battery from Napa (they charged it for me) and the price for a new starter for a 1977 Dodge Power Wagon D100 is only $48

One piece of advice--NAPA. like a lot of auto parts stores, often sells more than one version or "line" of the same component, like a starter. There's often a significant price difference. You'll be tempted to go with the cheap one, but don't--there's a reason it's cheaper. Or at least if you decide to save a few bucks, just keep in mind that the part may crap out on you sooner. With something like a starter, which can strand you in a most inconvenient way, I'd definitely pay the extra. I replaced the starter in my truck 2 falls ago, bought the NAPA premium brand (I'm pretty sure it said "NAPA Premium" on the box).

It sounds like they quoted you the cheaper one (probably because that's what most people want). The premium one is part #444619 (that's for the 318 motor, I think it's the same for the other motors but not sure), costs more like $60 if you give them the old starter ("core"). I think the main difference is they use more new replacement parts (brushes, springs, pinion gear) in the premium one, rather than just cleaning up the old parts and reinstalling. Here's a link to the starter I'm referring to at NAPA's website:

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=RAY&PartNumber=444619&Description=Starter+-+Remfd+-+Premium

Speed is probably right about having the original rebuilt, provided you are dealing with a quality shop and you know they do good work. I wouldn't hesitate to get the premium rebuilt at NAPA, though.

If I were you, I'd also take this opportunity to replace your battery cables (unless there's pretty new ones on there), replace the cable from the starter relay to the starter, and make sure you have clean and tight ground connections between battery and block, battery and chassis (I first joined this forum a year and a half ago because I was having starting issues, too, so I've been right where you are). Also be sure to clean the mounting surface to bare shiny metal where the starter bolts on (you might replace those bolts and washers while you're at it)--the starter is grounded through that way, and if you don't have clean metal-to-metal contact it can cause issues.

Good luck! Feel free to drop in and ask any questions, no matter how green!

p.s. If you pull you starter and bring it to NAPA you can have them test it for you...just to be sure that's the problem.

Speed Dragon

01-25-2008, 07:51 AM

Speed is probably right about having the original rebuilt, provided you are dealing with a quality shop and you know they do good work. I wouldn't hesitate to get the premium rebuilt at NAPA, though.

Hence the "reputable" adjective ;) But I agree, a premium Napa rebuild would probably be fine. Carquest also has good stuff, I actually have a cheap Carquest starter on the Diplomat right now, no problems yet but it's only been on there maybe 4-6 months. Turned to not even be the starter on it, but the battery, I put the old original starter off it on another van and it worked great still :D

I have a very good rebuilder that I take most of my starters and alternators too, I trust one rebuilt by him over the most expensive new one you can get at the parts stores:gr_patrio He's also reasonable, seldom cost me more than 25-50 bucks for anything.

GHS

01-25-2008, 08:16 AM

I bought the premium NAPA rebuilt, and it went bad in a few days. They replaced it and that one lasted 1,000 miles before it left me stranded.

I hated to do it, but since I couldn't find a new Mopar OEM starter, I bought a new mini-starter. They are all made outside the USA, but my truck now starts when I touch the key. It remains to be seen, how long it will last.

Megunticook

01-25-2008, 08:17 AM

Hence the "reputable" adjective ;)

Right, I was just affirming your point.

Turned to not even be the starter on it

Hate to admit this, but I think I was guilty of replacing my starter prematurely 2 falls ago, too...I suspect the problem may have actually been a bad ground connection on the battery which I was too inexperienced to pick up on (until you guys pointed it out to me). I fixed that at the same time I replaced the starter, so I'll never know for sure. But the one I pulled was only 3 years old or so.

I have a very good rebuilder that I take most of my starters and alternators too, I trust one rebuilt by him over the most expensive new one you can get at the parts stores

Lucky you...wish I had that.

bherder

01-25-2008, 06:05 PM

Heh heh heh.....

Yeah, on Mopar stuff (Electrical stuff ABSOLUTELY) you don't wannna go 'cheap'... (Starters, alts, ECU's , volt regs... etc)

I agree with Meg that buying the 'primo' stuff, is cheap insurance.... I also agree with Speed that having a 'local' who knows what they are doing (Along with saving you some $$) is a great way to go.

These reduction-gear starters are not something you clean up and throw a few new parts in and expect to work flawlessly. Rebuilding them... you GOTTA' know what you're doing.

And just to let y'all know.... I've never had to replace my starter, BUT ....
It's been -25 at night here for the last week, getting up to MAYBE '0' during the day... and yeah, I've had to thump my starter a few times to get it to crank over.....
Shit just freezes up sometimes, y'know?? :D :D :D

izaana

01-25-2008, 06:40 PM

Well I got underneath the truck tonight after work and found it hard to even get a hammer in there to give it a whack, but I tried....didn't really know where to hit it, so I tapped the best I could in all different spots that I could reach....still clicking rapidly. So I got my only socket set out and found that 16mm socket fits it perfectly but cant get the socket attachment onto the socket to wrench/crank the bolt, the head of the socket handle won't even fit in there, neither will my channel locks. These are the types of things that I worry about, because I have no patience for that type of crap. So what the heck do I do now? What kind pf tool do I need and how much will this cost me? I can't believe I have to spend money on another tool (socket wrench) just to get the damn thing off my truck just to go get it checked. I am not fully understanding the whole wire to wire arcing thing to see if the starter is any good myself.
How do I invite someone to this thread????

Megunticook

01-25-2008, 07:42 PM

Not to sound parental or anything, but I think if you are serious about fixing/maintaining your rig by yourself as opposed to paying someone else, you're going to have to be willing to lay out a little cash for the basics or you will be constantly banging your head against the wall and not have a reliable vehicle anytime soon.

A set of standard sockets and a ratchet is pretty fundamental. I haven't priced any out recently, but I would think you could pick up something decent for not too much. See what Sears has to offer, for starters--the Craftsman line used to be decent and not too expensive, but it's been quite a few years since I bought any (I just quickly found a 7-piece Craftsman set of SAE 3/8 drive sockets for $55, for example at http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00934445000P?sbf=Brand&sbv=Craftsman&vName=Tools&cName=Mechanics+Tools&sName=Sockets ). Maybe a used set off eBay or something would work--but I can tell you from personal experience that trying to do things with the wrong tools (like using metric on SAE hardware) only leads to breaking stuff, rounding over bolts/nuts, and generally making what should be a simple job turn into a timesink nightmare. You will also need some combination wrenches (open at one end, box at the other--this might be the easiest way to loosen those starter mounting bolts, unless you have an extension for your ratchet). Pulling a starter takes literally 15 minutes with the right tools.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but $50 for a Factory Service Manual is going to pay for itself many times over--trust me. We'll share what we know on the forum here, and I'd lend you tools if I was your neighbor, but at some point you're going to have to take the bull by the horns.

Again, don't mean to tell you what to do, I'm just detecting in this thread (and some of the others) that you may be setting yourself up for a lot of frustration...

izaana

01-25-2008, 07:58 PM

cook,
don't sweat it at all, I know your right and your advice is spot on. I just have certain pet peeves and one is not being able to pick up on things and be good at them right off the bat. Another one is having to work on something you can't even get to. I am not sure but I think I did not state the last post very well and there has been a miscommunication. I have a craftsman socket set and the 16mm did fit perfectly (I am almost positive..lol) but I couldnt get the handle/head part on the socket once the socket was on the bolt.....no room. So what kind of tool do I need now. And ater feeling around on top of the starter and finding the second bolt holding it on, I am wondering how in the world do you get to that bolt??

Megunticook

01-25-2008, 08:59 PM

It's been over a year since I last pulled my starter, but as I recall I lay on my back underneath and used a box wrench (the type that encircles the bolt head--pretty much guarantees that you won't round over the corners) for one bolt, and for the other I think I reached in from the top with a socket and extension--probably standing on a crate by the front fender (I do that a lot--even at 6'2" with orangutan arms I can't reach half the $%&* in the engine compartment without a perch!). It was awkward for sure.

If you can't get your ratchet on the socket because the starter body is in the way, and you don't have an extension, a wrench should do the trick.

Squirt the bolts with some PB Blaster the day before you do the job, too--if they're rusted in there, it will make the job a lot easier.

Be careful when removing the second bolt that the whole starter doesn't come crashing down on your head--it's quite heavy.

I still think you're going to want to invest in some SAE sockets and wrenches--you might get away with using the metric set for a while but sooner or later you're going to round over the corners of a bolt head or nut and then you'll really have some work to do (been there, done that).

You got a birthday coming up? Maybe some tools could be on your wish list...

izaana

01-25-2008, 09:40 PM

Yeah I could get the socket on but the ratchet wont fit at all and the channel locks I have wont even come close to fitting in there. Right below the starter is an exhaust pipe (what is left of it anyway) and two small metal lines? that don't move. this makes it very hard to get in there, probably will be even with a combo wrench. I found that it was a good thing my safety glasses for work were in the car, or I'd be blind right now from rust in my eyes...lol Lots of rust everywhere underneath. I picked up a can of PB Blaster the other day at Napa when I dropped off my battery to get it charged. I think I will over all need about 10 gallons of it :(

GHS

01-25-2008, 10:28 PM

The two lines are transmission cooling lines. They are probably attached with a clip to the bottom bolt on the starter. Be careful you don't damage them.

Before you remove your starter, make sure the battery is disconnected. You will probably need a swivel, or flexible extention to get at the bolts, and as you have been warned, that starter is HEAVY.

If you don't have the tools, I would recommend you take it to someone who does have the tools. It's a simple job, but if you don't have the right tools, it's difficult. It shouldn't take over 10 minutes to do the job, so they shouldn't charge much.

One more thing...when working on an old Dodge, put your metric tools in a sack and hide them somewhere. Except for the 15mm, which will work in place of a 9/16", nothing will fit, and you will damage fasteners.

DiverDwnPowrRam

01-25-2008, 11:06 PM

I believe it is a box end wrench for that top bolt. If I remember '77 or '78 was the big push to the middle 1980s to use metric bolts and nuts. I am sure you have a nice starter set...but the "worth the price of admission" feeling is when you need a tool and you reach in your rollaway and there it is...nice. Little by little you will get there.

hoodlum38260

01-25-2008, 11:56 PM

If you are gonna do work on yourself. you need a few small things. A FSM. Doing the work yourself maybe be cheaper but it still can be pricey depending on what you are doing. And most of all it takes PATIENCE.

Chump

01-26-2008, 03:48 AM

If the starter is just clicking, try removing the battery cables from the battery and clean the posts on the battery and the inside of the battery cable clamps that attach to the posts. A battery terminal brush, sandpaper.

If that's your Truck in the picture you posted, then you have a W100,W200 or a W300 and not a D10. Look at your VIN number and it will begin with a W1,W2, or W3.

Follow this link for some help...

http://www.handymanlyness.com/archives/auto/maintenance/battery/cleaning.html

izaana

01-26-2008, 10:15 PM

Yeah I typed it wrong because it is wrong on the inside of the drivers side door or one of the o's has worn off because it says d10. I tried this arcing thing tonight after work with a flat screwdriver and it clicked just like when I turn the key. I could not really tell if it was turning over or not, not sure what that is supposed to sound like, so really that did me no good not knowing what to listen for and all. So that was kind of a waste time. So I guess I have to go ahead and pull the starter and take it somewhere to test it unless there is a sure way for me to test, a way that is obvious to anyone experienced or not. And that's if I ever get the bolts lossened up, I sprayed both bolts with PB Blaster and the people at Napa said it does not need to soak that it works immediately but I spreyed the heck out of it and I could not get that thing to budge and never will if it does not loosen up. I really cant get any good leverage on it. I bought a new socket set after work today with a 9/16 swivel and I needed a 5/8.....crud!!! have to go back and get another one. That bolt is a 5/8 but also a 16mm fits it perfectly.

Speed Dragon

01-27-2008, 10:36 AM

I have a craftsman socket set and the 16mm did fit perfectly (I am almost positive..lol) but I couldnt get the handle/head part on the socket once the socket was on the bolt.....no room. So what kind of tool do I need now. And ater feeling around on top of the starter and finding the second bolt holding it on, I am wondering how in the world do you get to that bolt?? ...you'll need a 5/8 wrench or wobblehead socket. It's 2 bolts
;);)

HumminCummins

01-27-2008, 08:18 PM

Let us know what kinda career you have. Maybe we can explain things to you by comparing it to something you know about.

izaana

01-27-2008, 09:56 PM

Thats it, I F'ing give up this is insane bullshit! Maybe I am not cut out to do mechanical work, constructiton/carpentry yes mechanical no. You can't get to anything and you cant get underneath the damn thing with out getting a face full of rust. I spent two hours today at the med center while a Dr. dug a piece of rust out of my eye. Had safety glasses on but they kept foggin up and I couldn't see and it was all for f'ing nothing!!!!! I have spent hours spraying this damn PB Blaster that is supposed to be such a miracle spray on those damn bolts and I even put a 3/8 drive socket on my Porter Cable drill with a 6" extension and 5/8 swivel socket on that bolt and still nothing, about burnt up my drill. On top of all that my dumb ass just realized something no one told me, even if I ever got the stupid bolts loose it would do no good, that starter is not coming off that truck unless one of two things is removed first. Either the exaust pipe or some thing that is hooked to the throttle thing by the carbuerator. Does anyone in here know yellowkota2k??? He lives near me and offered to help me sometime but I havent been able to get him on here in over a week and I am about ready to take my 8lb sledge and 5 gallons of gas to the thing. My wife, who was very enthusiastic about me learning all this stuff and thought I would enjoy it is already ready for me to sell the damn truck or part it out. She admitted today that although she was excited for me to learn this stuff, inside she had her reservations about my patience level. See, I have some real pet peeves and not much patience. One pet oeeve is trying to do something and running into 100 other problems. I wanna learn something, which is very hard for me unless I am seeing and doing with someone (I am not much of a self learner) and I expect to find out how to do something and go right to it and it to be exactly like I was told. This job is supposed to be a 10 minute job, which I have spent hours on for over a week and have already spent over 60$ on tools just to get a starter off, one that I can't get off. I tried even taking the exaust pipe off, it has to come off anyway to get the starter down and I thought if that damn thing was out of my way it might be easier to get more leverage on the ratchet to get the bolt loose on the starter. But then I found that for one side of the pipe mount into the engine it is a bolt with a nut on it (9/16) and I need a deep socket so there was another trip to Napa, got home and finally got that one to turn and started to get excited....wrong the top was turning too! and I only have two hands and one socket set....yellowkota2k if your out there reading this I need some help or I am going to scrap this damn truck. I didnt even want to get started on any of these projects til summer anyway and those projects were going to be all the advice I had been given in other threads, things that are actually hard things to do. I dind't expect the damn starter to go out so I cant even pull the truck around on the property to pick up wood for the stove. And according to everyone I have heard from the starter is suppposed to be easy and only take 10 minutes...HA!

DiverDwnPowrRam

01-28-2008, 04:54 AM

May I suggest...Anger management. Listen, most of our rides qualify for Antique Status, That means greasy hair, bloody knuckles, rust in your mouth and dirt in your eyes. But when it is all done, you can have that beer and be in the company of the rest of us and know you did the work yourself. You came here to learn about your ride...you are not going to be a master wrench in just one weekend....just a thought

bherder

01-28-2008, 06:24 AM

When you're working on old trucks like ours, things like this always happen. Unless your just adding a quart of oil, there is never just a '10 minute job'. I've always found it best, when you're at the point of throwing wrenchs, to just walk away from it and try again tomorrow.

Uhhh.... You are trying to turn the bolts in the right direction, aren't you? (Lefty-loosey, righty-tighty... ;) )

izaana

01-28-2008, 07:01 AM

yupper! counter clockwise, but hey thanks for the laugh, I need it. I really don't know what I am going to do, other than spend all kinds of money renting a damn air wrench and compressor just to get two bolts off so I can put a new starter on. That seems like rediculous expensive/overkill to me.

Megunticook

01-28-2008, 07:30 AM

You can also try tapping the bolt with a hammer right after you squirt some PB Blaster on it--the vibrations will help it penetrate (just tap it inward like you were driving in a nail). And sometimes the tapping will also help break the rust bond. Don't need to whale on it, just some firm taps.

How long is your ratchet? The longer the better, obviously, since you get more leverage that way (too long won't fit anywhere, of course!)

Another old mechanics trick that was taught to me was instead of applying steady, even pressure on the ratchet, give it some quick, firm blows to try and jolt that bolt loose. Don't want to ruin your ratchet handle--start with the heel of a gloved hand (maybe wrap the handle in a soft rag to cushion it so you don't bruise your hand). You can also whack the handle with a hammer, but be careful not to damage it--again, maybe wrapping it in a rag would be a good idea. If you have a rubber mallet, that would work well.

Do you have a floor jack and jackstands? That might make it a little easier on you (I'm sure you know never to get under a vehicle with just the jack holding it--always use stands).

I know what you mean about the rust in the eyes...I always wear glasses and it often seems to find it's way past them--just last weekend when I was changing out my fuel line I had to stop several times because of that.

I probably shouldn't have said anything about how long the job takes--yes, I have certainly removed my starter in 15 minutes before, but I've also had plenty of jobs that took hours and hours (removing rusted brake lines a couple falls ago--I would spend 2 hours and make zero progress--so frustrating!).

izaana

01-28-2008, 09:28 AM

Just this morning I went straight to maintenence when I got to work and had them cut me an 18" pipe for the very thing you are talking about...leverage. And thanks for the words of encouragement, I obviously need them, I appreciate it. My eye is scratched from the rust and smarts pretty good today. I plan on going to some pawn shops and checking out craigslist for a floor jack and some stands, I have a pretty good amount of room underneath but for this and I am sure some things in the future I will need MORE room. I will try tapping the end of the bolt tonight when I get home along with more PB Blaster, but any ideas on how to get the thing out of there after getting it loose? I just can't believe I have to take the exaust off and out of the engine to get the starter out??? But hey, at least I don't have to worry about it's heaviness and it coming down on my head like alot of you all have warned me about...LOL

HemiDak

01-28-2008, 10:43 AM

I replied to your PM.

izaana

01-28-2008, 12:35 PM

Thank you YK2K

GHS

01-28-2008, 01:58 PM

You don't have to remove the exhaust pipe to remove the starter. It's a snug fit, but it will come out.

I've never seen starter bolts rust to the point they wouldn't loosen. However, sometimes a socket will bind in a tight fit to the point you can't turn the ratchet. You should be able to get a 12-point, box-end wrench in a position where you can get enough leverage to pop them loose, then use the socket to spin them out.

If you're having this much trouble with clearance getting to the mounting bolts, I don't envy you trying to remove and re-install the wire terminals.

bherder

01-28-2008, 02:12 PM

As Meg says, leverage is the key to it all.... I've used 'cheater' bars on a 1/2" breaker bar to loosen things that a 1/2" impact gun couldn't touch. A piece of 3/4" pipe on a breaker bar works wonders at times :D

I also agree with a liberal dousing of PB Blaster and giving the offending bolts a rap. You may even want to let it sit for a day and every so often go give the bolts a couple of taps....

Helpful Hint:

When dealing with some real stubborn bolts... Depending on whether you're pushing or pulling on the wrench/rachet.. If your pulling on it, look around and figure out 'If this breaks free all of a sudden, what are my hands/arms gonna hit?' That way, you can help shield whatever part of you, you may think is gonna get busted/tore up. Doesn't always work, but at least you tried ;)
If you're pushing... Instead of wraping your fingers around the tool, push on it with the ball of your hand, fingers open. That way, if it breaks free all of a sudden, more than likely you hand slips free of the tool and can save you some bloody knuckles. It doesn't ALWAYS work that way, but a lot of times it does. ;)

BTW, I've never had to remove the stock exhaust on any Dodge engine to R&R a starter... They don't just fall on the floor, but there is enough 'wiggle room' there to get it in and out.....

Don't give up man .... Don't let a couple of lousey bolts beat you! :D :D :D

Oh hell, I almost forgot....

Just remember, for any job, there is 'A Right Tool' .... Yeah, sometimes you can fudge with a not-so-right tool and get away with that, but for the most part, all it causes is grief and more work.
And yes, GOOD tools are NOT cheap. Tools that I use all the time, I will only buy the good stuff. 'Specialty' tools that I know I may only ever need a few times... I'll buy the cheaper stuff.
Just keep in mind, that most of us here have spent years (If not decades) building up our tool boxes... :D But what it all boils down to is, that if ya wanna play, ya gotta' pay ;)

izaana

01-28-2008, 03:15 PM

12-point, box-end wrench ????
I know what a box end is, but a 12 point?? I am finding that I spent some good money on good socket sets and extensions and swivel sockets but I need some combination wrenches.

I wanna replace all the wires as far as the battery cables and wiring from battery to relay (solenoiod) and on to the starter but I am nervous because I know absolutely nothing about it, and that makes me nervous with the wires, afraid I'll screw something up and there are wires going everywhere and I know some are added and I don't know what they go to? And with the tools I bought this weekend I am over budget for the week and so the FSM will have to wait. With wiring I am afrraid I will have top have someone come out to my place and give me some clues.

izaana

01-28-2008, 03:29 PM

bherder

01-28-2008, 04:12 PM

Thanks for all the heads up! But I was already figuring on the push/pull thing and busted knuckles, I have worked enough construction to have the experience on working with hand tools to know about thinking ahead and what the cause and effect will be....the hard way...LOL

Hahaha! We ALL have! Comes with the territory.. ;)

Just look at it this way.... One day when your grandkids are sitting on yer knee... And they say, "Grandpa! Where did you get THAT scar?? Did you get that in 'The War'??"
And you say, "Hell no.... Wars are for sissys! I got that the day that an entire transmission fell on my arm. Yup. Wraped a bunch of paper towels around it and held it on with electric tape... I lost almost all my blood, BUT, I finished taking the clutch out...."

They'll be amazed... :D

I'll have to see once I ever get it loose on whether it will fit through the bottom, hopefully I am wrong but I just can't see it happening.

Not everything comes out through the bottom. Sometimes the top or the side.... ;)

I will try the tapping thing tonight, but that will be about all I will get done tonight. This week I am working fropm 4:30 am til 4:30 pm and it is dark when I get home, or just about and I dont have very good lighting in the garage ....YET! that is later on down the line in the budget for garage toys. But I have seen the tree stand type lights for under $50

There ya go.... Good lighting makes a world of difference.
(Murphy's Law: No matter how you hang a drop light, it will NEVER light up what you need to see, will ALWAYS be pointed in your face, and the damn cord is ALWAYS in the way)

:thatfunny :thatfunny :thatfunny

ramitupurs84

01-28-2008, 05:02 PM

When I get bolts out I sometimes, depending on the situation cut them. Only if the part I am trying to remove isn't threaded in to the bolt. If its just a waster/lockingwasher with a nut keeping it on its coming off. That way I have more room to muscle it off.

charlie1935

01-28-2008, 05:18 PM

There ya go.... Good lighting makes a world of difference.
(Murphy's Law: No matter how you hang a drop light, it will NEVER light up what you need to see, will ALWAYS be pointed in your face, and the damn cord is ALWAYS in the way)

:thatfunny :thatfunny :thatfunny[/QUOTE]
That's why they are called trouble lights! ;)

izaana

01-28-2008, 07:34 PM

Bherder, your not going to believe this sh*t! I just wanna scream!! The God of garages must hate me and not want me around. I got underneath as soon as I got home and put that cheater bar on the ratchet (the 18" pipe I got at work today) and remember I got a nice 12 point socket set this weekend. I put the thing on the bottom bolt and did just like I was advised and gave it some quick jerking pushes and it budged, just a little, but at least it budged then the socket came off and as I was putting it back on to give it another try I shined the flashlight on the bolt and all be damned the bolt didn't budge at all!!! The bolt is starting to round over on the corners....AAAAARARRRGGGHHHH!!!! OK everyone NOW WHAT???????? It has been suggested at work to put a torch to it and heat it up??? I am nervous about catching something on fire with all the grease and oil on everything down there. What in the world do I do guys??? I think I am going to need about 50 gallons of PB Blaster and a paint sprayer and jujst soak the whole undercarriage of the truck and engine.

bherder

01-29-2008, 07:34 PM

Before you completely mess the bolt up, get yourself a SIX-point socket.
If you've buggered up the head of the bolt enough, you may have to tap the socket on the head of the bolt with a hammer....
Are you using a 3/8" drive or a 1/2" drive rachet/socket?
Too much 'leverage' will bust a 3/8" drive into bits.
(For the life of me, I've never seen starter motor bolts THAT stubborn!)

It's been a while since I've had to R&R a Mopar starter (MANY Furds though..) but if I remember correctly (And I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) the bolts go through the bell housing.... Feel up around the backside of the starter and make sure some idgiot didn't put nuts on the backside of the bell housing....

izaana

01-29-2008, 09:36 PM

Bherder,
The socket set I had to begin with, them mm socket set I have had for years is a 1/2" and it barely fits with little to no room to ratchet (laying on ground looking up, exhaust is on the right and transmission cooling lines are on the left all very tight and close to the bottom of the starter) that's why I went with a 3/8" and swivel socket. Don't know why I was thinking this, a little common sense and just looking at the sockets and the the bolt and I would of been able to figure it out. But I had it in my head that 12 point was better than 6, what a no-brainer on my part. I am going to see if Napa will let me exchange the set for a 6 point set. I was hitting the best I could tonight with a hammer using a socket screwdriver style tool like a nail set, and that actually made the bolt worse. Now I cannot get a 5/8 socket on the bolt. The bolt is messed up at the top of the bolt, so a open end wrench should still fit on it. BUt I tapped and hit on the bolt pretty good tonight and sprayed more PB Blaster on it. Much more of this and I am going to have to find someone to come out to my place and give me a hand. My problem is I really don't know many people, much less mechanically minded ones and money is not very abundant with 1 year old twins. We just moved out here 4 weeks ago and we can't find the cord to download pix from the camera to the computer or I would take a pic and post for you. But sitting inside and going by memory there is a really rusty coffe like can going into a silver gray piece like a small casting. This has flange on the right side (looking up) where the wires from the solenoid go in and at the bottom and the top this is where the bolts go in. I will feel around tomorrow and see if I can feel around to the backside. Thanks for hanging in with me :D

Brandon

P.S. I am editing because I just noticed the times of the last two posts, mine last nighyt and your reply tonight....WEIRD!!!

Megunticook

01-29-2008, 10:50 PM

Bherder's right, the 6-point sockets all but eliminate the rounded-corner syndrome. It took me some hard lessons to finally learn this, but now whenever I come up against a tough bolt or nut I always go with the 6-point socket or box wrench.

In fact, there's a particular kind of 6-point socket that's designed specifically to prevent rounding corners, called "flank-drive." These are made by Snap-on, and are wicked expensive, but on a few occasions I have gone ahead and ordered single sockets online just to save myself the time and aggravation of extracting a buggered bolt--a 5/8 flank-drive socket for a 1/2" ratchet is $12:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=hand&item_ID=3022&group_ID=11527&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

Sorry you're having so much trouble. I know exactly how it feels--you just want to let out a lion roar and beat your head against the frame. When you get that way best to go do something else for a while.

Have you tried the other bolt yet? Just curious.

izaana

01-30-2008, 04:56 AM

Actually I was thinking about that, but no I have not tried the other bolt yet. I am not quite sure how I am going to get to it yet, my hands won't fit through from the bottom and I am only 5'7 and have to stand on a log that I cut a few weeks back when I cut down 2 trees for firewood, I left one 2' piece to stand on just to mess with the battery. Not sure yet how I am going to reach the top starter bolt all the way down in there???

bherder

01-30-2008, 06:57 PM

I can reach the top bolt with either a combo wrench or ratchet/socket with juuuust the right amount of extension...

I saw an interesting tool a few weeks ago at the local hardware store... It's a socket with a bunch of teeny pins in it. You just push the socket over, 'whatever' and it comforms to the shape of the head of the bolt. Rounded or not. It was advertised as a 'One Size Fits All/Works on Striped Heads' kinda' thing. I was almost gonna buy one, but it was $25.00 and I had no beer at home... :D

madracingalley

01-31-2008, 11:52 AM

This rapped clicking means you have a poor connection to your battery ull the cables off then clean them then clean your battery then reattach your cables TIGHTLY, its gotta be a connection problem. My 85 has done this to me before and i too ... I'll explain what happened.

I had just finished my trucks stereo system and i had to get the mammoth of of the garage without rear breaks so my pops could get the T-Bird in the garage. and just as im about to start the MAINT REQD light binked along with a very fast clicky noise:VHOT:.. all my lights worked and my radio came on but the starter didn't have enough juice. So after a few choice word at my poor beloved truck my pops came in and told me to tighten the battery connections and then well It started right up:cool:, and being me, i had to say sorry to the inanimate hood ornamant:crazy:

0.Try the connections. i try to check everything 3 times
1.Make sure the connections are Clean (use electrical grease after cleaning)
2. MAKE SURE THE TWO BATTERY CONNECTIONS ARE TIGHT
(dont think that just because the loops are on the terminals itll run
CAUSE IT WONT) TIGHTEN THE LOOPS
3. My 85 has done this twice to me because i forget to tighten my connections every time i work on my stereo system (or do electrical)
4. If the problen consists and sounds like scraping metal pull ur starter and check the gear if the teeth are good pull ur tranny and change the flywheel

Speed Dragon

01-31-2008, 01:11 PM

He's already checked all the connections.

Izaana, I think you've run into a bolt that either someone overtightened or cross-threaded before you. You may need to get/borrow a good wobble-head socket and a 1/2-to-3/8 drive adapter so you can use a 1/2" drive ratchet on it. The top bolt you should be able to get from the top w/ a box-end wrench, just climb up into the engine and sit on the frame kinda. I usually end up half sprawled across the engine compartment :)

Oh, and by wobble-head I mean these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SNAP-ON-MATCO-MAC-SK-S-K-SWIVEL-WOBBLE-HEAD-SOCKET-SET_W0QQitemZ250210386666QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item2 50210386666

Those sockets are the shiznit for tight spots:cool:

izaana

01-31-2008, 05:45 PM

I am looking everywhere for the cable to the digital camera (wer'e doing good since that is the only thing we have misplaced in our move) so I can up load some pics for you guys to see exactly what I am looking at. I feel sometimes like were talking about 2 different trucks or someone before me changed alot of things on this truck from stock. Of course I wouldn't know any different being new to all this. I am going to have to find someone that can come out and physically help me, this passed absolutely rediculous for 2 bolts on a starter for anyone green or not, a while ago.

mikehopkinsjr

02-03-2008, 03:33 PM

Yall sure? his bolts might be backwards, in the case righty-loosey lefty-tighty

bherder

02-03-2008, 04:29 PM

Yall sure? his bolts might be backwards, in the case righty-loosey lefty-tighty

It would be the first left-hand threaded bolts on a starter, that I've ever seen on .... anything.

charlie1935

02-03-2008, 08:44 PM

It would be the first left-hand threaded bolts on a starter, that I've ever seen on .... anything.

Bruce, don't forget about the older Mopars wheels lugs. :D :gr_patrio

izaana

02-03-2008, 09:59 PM

I am going to have to try and find someone to come out to my place and help me get this damn starter off. I got a set of SAE combination wrenches today and just cant get them things to budge at all, even with a cheater bar on the wrench. Any suggestionsd on how I would go about finding someone to come to my house and help me get two bolts off and the starter (somehow) out of the truck?? I shouldnt have to pay too much should I? It's only two bolts....two bolts that have pissed me off more than any other inanimate object in my life, these two atupid bolts have kicked my asws all over the place, I would of rather had my a** kicked by a person...LOL. I can't wait to see how these things come off and that thing comes out, if I can find someone to come help me.

Brandon

HumminCummins

02-03-2008, 10:11 PM

I was looking at my dodge today. When you put your combo wrenches on make sure you are pushing up to loosen. Don't pull down. I know when you are down on the ground, on your back the whole righty tighty, lefty loosey thing can seem backwards or confuse some people. Hell, if you can position a jack under there use a jack to push then wrench for you.

izaana

02-03-2008, 10:26 PM

Megunticook

02-04-2008, 07:21 AM

Even the open end of the wrench on there today was starting to round the bolt head. Hell I'll try anything at this point, tomorrow I'll try turning it the other way....somehow I am not very hopeful :(

In my experience, when the corners of a bolt head or nut start rounding over, the safe course is to get a 6-point box wrench or socket on it (get it on there fully, even if you have to tap it on with a hammer--in extreme cases you can even take a file and remove any deformations that prevent the socket/wrench from fitting over the bolt). Anything else is liable to round the corners over even more. I learned this lesson the hard way, believe me.

Go order that Snap-On socket I gave you the link for earlier, or if you don't want to spend $12 (they don't charge shipping) you can get a Craftsman one for $3 or $4. Until you have a 5/8 6-point socket or box end wrench I wouldn't waste your time messing with it.

One thing to take away from this nightmare experience is that if a bolt or nut you're trying to remove is being especially stubborn, stop before you do any damage, grab a quality 6-point socket or wrench, get it positioned fully and securely, and then and only then go to town on it. I think the only times I've rounded over bolts/nuts is when I violated this rule of thumb.

While this is obviously incredibly frustrating to you, keep in mind that it's happened to everybody, even the professionals.

Megunticook

02-04-2008, 07:26 AM

just climb up into the engine and sit on the frame kinda. I usually end up half sprawled across the engine compartment :)

And I thought I was the only one that did that! I always feel kind of ridiculous squatting on the frame rail--especially when my wife comes over to see what in the world I'm doing wasting time on that piece of junk instead doing one of a thousand things on HER punch list...

I miss my old D-100 with the slant six--guy my height with my length arms could reach in anywhere no problem...seems like that motor was designed with the home mechanic in mind! Ah, the good old days...

Megunticook

02-04-2008, 07:34 AM

...

bherder

02-04-2008, 08:48 AM

Bruce, don't forget about the older Mopars wheels lugs. :D :gr_patrio

That's why I specifically said 'starter bolts' ;) ;) ;)

izaana

02-04-2008, 12:04 PM

Megunticook

02-04-2008, 12:22 PM

As I recall, that's a "reach in and down while standing on a crate by the front fender" type of maneuver.

Speed Dragon

02-04-2008, 03:57 PM

I really think sometimes we are all talking about different trucks. My wife ordered another cable for our digital camera so I can upload some pics......cause there is no way I can sit on the frame rail, or anything for that matter and reach the top bolt on the starter.Yeah there is, unless you have stubby arms :stk: Trust me, I've done it before. It's a PITA, but you can do it. Takes patience though ;)

bherder

02-05-2008, 08:27 AM

Maybe these will help...
First pic is from underneath, driver side, rear of engine...
Last pic is from the top looking down between frame and exhaust manifold...

izaana

02-05-2008, 09:36 AM

bherder,
There are no bolts or nuts coming out the back side. Also the pics you have would not be able to be taken of my starter, no room for camera to put where you did to take pic. the pic you have with the spring things and the exaust pipe (the first one) the pipe in my pic would be above the springs. In the second pic showing where to look for nut, in jy pic you would not be able to see tyhe starter that well because a exaust pipe would be in the way.

Speed Dragon

02-05-2008, 04:48 PM

Are you sure you have a smallblock? Where does the exhaust exit the manifolds, in the middle or at the back next to the firewall? There is absolutely no reason for there to be an exhaust pipe running anywhere around the starter that would keep it from coming out, if it has stock truck manifolds on it. Now if it has car mani's on it or some asinine exhaust shop got ahold of it, that's a different story.

I think you need to get us some pics of the situation, before we try to advise you any further.

bherder

02-05-2008, 06:25 PM

There are no bolts or nuts coming out the back side.

OK, just wanted you to make sure... I've seen before where guys have 'backed up' the bolt with nuts on the other end, so as to make sure the bolts didn't loosen up (Which can happen...)

Also the pics you have would not be able to be taken of my starter, no room for camera to put where you did to take pic. the pic you have with the spring things and the exaust pipe (the first one) the pipe in my pic would be above the springs.

I'm completely confused now. My rig (79') should be near identical to your rig.
My rig is just about as 'stock' as 'stock' can be....
I'm wondering if (As Speed sez: )
If you even do have a small block (Is the distributor in the front of the engine or the rear of the engine?) Yours is a 77' so it COULD be a big block...
OR... If somewhere down the line, some muffler shop didn't build a new exhaust and completely "F" it up.....

Thing is.... any small block ... With the stock exhaust.... you should be able to get to the mounting bolts fairly easy, and when everything is unbolted, it should damn-near just fall on the floor....

In the second pic showing where to look for nut, in jy pic you would not be able to see tyhe starter that well because a exaust pipe would be in the way.

izaana

02-05-2008, 09:41 PM

Ok here goes, my wife says the cable for the digital camera she ordered off EBay should be here in the mail anyday and then I am going to take some pics, Speeddragon is right I need for you guys to see what I am seeing...what a introduction to learning huh? I can feel a hole on the back side of the flange for bottom bolt but nothing coming out of it. I got a 6 point 5/8 on it tonight after filing and tapping the socket on, and found a way to get the cheater bar on it and pry up on it using those leaf spring things (I think thats what they are?) And guess what I got the bolt out.....HALF OF IT AHHHHHHH! Now what do I do?? how do I get the bolt that is broke off in there out? And FYI the exaust pipe (as I lay on the ground looking up) comes out of the engine towards the front of the engine, and runs down next to the two transmission cooling lines, less than 3" below the starter. I've been telling you guys that there is no way for the starter to fall on my head, and that I had no idea when I ever did get the bolts loose how in the world I would actually get it out. Guys I have no idea if it is a small or big block? I wouldn't know the difference, I told you I am green, green, green. Also I do not know what or where a distributor is? If I reemember right the guy who sold it to me said it is a 360 motor with a 727? fly tranny?? I am about ready to taake the exaust pipe off if I can, I am pretty sure from the experience I have had so far that those bolts will break also (there totally rusted) and I will need another set of hands to hold the nut on the top side of the engine part where the exaust pipe goes into the engine, it is 9/16". If that won't work I can get a hack saw and just cut the exaust pipe off to give me room to get to and work on the starter, what would that hurt? if anything? the exaust is already really bad, it all comes out underneath the truck anyway and it is loud...EXTREMELY LOUD!!! I love it :) I can't wait to show you guys some pics, I am really curious now as to just what I have and what is going on.

Brandon
and hey guys, thanks so much for all your help and advice and patience with me, I am so glad I found this site :) Too bad wer'e not all close to each other, you guys could come and get a good laugh out of me in person...hahaha! Hey it could be a fun group project...LOL :)

Megunticook

02-05-2008, 11:07 PM

Damn, that bolt must've been in there quite a few road-salted winters. Don't suppose that's the original starter? Tough start to your rehab project--and do yourself a favor, pick yourself up some anti-seize compound (the silvery stuff that brushes on) and use it liberally on threads and bolt heads whenever you reassemble stuff. It's a good idea to replace badly corroded fasteners, too.

Look at the bright side--you're halfway to getting that starter out--once the top bolt is out you should be able to yank the starter and go have it tested/replaced (you did remove the cables already, right?)

That busted off bolt can be extracted...give it a few more squirts, from both sides, of PB Blaster. Then there are various ways of getting it out--you could use an "EZ-Out" type extracter, which you insert after drilling a hole in the center of the broken bolt, it threads in backwards and then once it tightens up you can remove the bolt. But these can be kind of dicey, if you break the extractor off inside the bolt you've created an even worse situation. Anybody else got some good bolt-extraction tips? This isn't my area of expertise...

I've had good luck using reverse-threaded drill bits before, the twisting torque action of the drill bit will often loosen up the frozen fastener...and not as prone to snapping off like the EZ-outs...

Speed Dragon

02-06-2008, 08:33 AM

The distributor is the thing that the plug wires are attached to :) Spark plugs on one end, distributor on the other. Just follow a plug wire back from the spark plug, you'll find the distributor. If it's at the back by the firewall, it's a smallblock. If it's at the front by the fan, sticking out towards the pass side, it's a big block.

We'll be waiting for the pics, I really want to see what is up, I'm like 99% sure someone has really hosed this truck up.

mikehopkinsjr

02-06-2008, 05:18 PM

You are sure you unbolting the starter?

mystyxlost

03-03-2008, 08:33 PM

Hey i thought this might help. I have a 400 in my 77 and the headers drop down in the way like you have been describing. When i had to pull my starter the only way i could remove it was by removing the bolts from both ends of the header. Then with it loose i was able to finagle the starter out behind the header. Here are some pics i went out and took to show my setup. Also if i remember correctly when i removed the bottom bolt it was actually a nut on a threaded stud. When i bought a replacement start i tried the heavy duty version. Only difference was the h.d was a half an inch longer. I fought it for two days but could not get it to clear the header. Took back and exchanged for the regular starter and it slid right into place when i tried the first time. Anyway hope this helps ya any.