Broken timing belt

[donald7150]

My timing belt took a crap on me on the way to school this morning

The belt was changed at 95,000 kms. the car now has 156,000

If by some very unlikely chance i havent damaged the motor (which i think is a very slim chance. i was doing 140 km/h when it happened) whats a good brand of timing belt to put back there?

I will tear it down over the next few days and post an update

[dodgeneonACR98]

I used a Dayco time belt when I did mine.

[donald7150]

Well here it is
just got it towed home
took off the inspection cover and this is what i saw....
this is a belt with only 60,000 kms on it

[HoodooGuru]

Sorry, But there is no chance in hell u didn't do even a little bit of damage at that speed. Expect at least new valves and maybe a piston or 2 and if ur really unlucky a new head.

[dodgeneonACR98]

I could use that block if you go to junk the car let me know!

[donald7150]

Well i have a new belt on order from the dealer. gonna throw it on set the timing and fire it up and see what happens, cant do any more damage.

I wont be junking the car. it will be fixed. local salvage yard is chocked full of 1st gen neons im sure he'll fix me up with what ever i need

[HoodooGuru]

Don't just put the new t/belt on.
Waste of time. Take the head off while u can and atleast do a new head gasket. U WILL have to look at the valves. I guarantee it.

[rice_eater]

Well i have a new belt on order from the dealer. gonna throw it on set the timing and fire it up and see what happens, cant do any more damage.
YES YOU CAN. You have bent valves. Period. Get over it. Right now you're looking at a new head, $50 or so from a yard plus labor to change it. There's a possibility that the pistons might be ok if you got the clutch in right away after it happened, or at the very least you might not have damaged all four. Crank the engine over with bent valves and you'll add four new pistons to your shopping list as well, which is going to involve a complete tear down of the block. At that point, you're better off getting another engine for $400-$500 or so. (Did I hear someone say 2.4L swap? :D ) I advise you to pull the head off right now and see what you've got to work with.

Also, in my humble opinion, it wasn't your timing belt that failed. Now hear me out. The belt failed yes, but as a result of your water pump locking up. See how the belt is cleanly snapped in two? See how the belt does not look worn? Pull the water pump off, I'd bet money that it's locked up. Either that or the tensioner broke. The belt should not have failed on its own that early. Make sure you replace the pump and tensioner if you end up keeping this motor. I'd start looking around for engines, it's probably going to be cheaper and easier just to swap another one in.

Good luck.

[sohc98]

This happened to me on a 95 2.5 v6 chrysler sebring that i was changing the timing belt and water pump on at work then my boss' friend walks in and sees that the car has a deck in it and trys to turn the car on and bent a few valves so we just ended up replacing the whole motor it costed about 400.00 for a used motor with under 60,000 miles and this car was the worst car for working on it had no room in the engine bay so we had to drop the motor out the botom. it was not fun.

[EZ4U2CHere]

I wouldn't go through the trouble twice. Just pull the head now.

Just FYI: Timing belts can break prematurely. Rare, but it can happen. A friend of mine had one go at 20k miles.

[donald7150]

Yeah the car ran for approx 6 or 7 seconds at 3400 rpm before i realized what happened (going downhill). there was no rattling or nothing just a big snap and the car acted as if i shut the key off. so i figure whatever damage that can be done has already been done. I even tried cranking it over and it just sounds just like it lost all compression

And I am also figuring that it was a waterpump or tensioner failure that caused all this. i'm going to pull the timing case apart tonight and see whats on the go

[alaskaneon]

Is the glass half full or half empty? look at it as an opportunity to do some internal modifications!

[donald7150]

Lol i'd love to but i'm a poor student right now
Doing my first year apprenticeship in Construction Industrial Electrical
Maybe next summer when I start work i'll be able to afford the mods

[rice_eater]

If it comes down to a replacement engine... 2.4L DOHC's are going to run roughly the same price as a 2.0L DOHC. Easy swap. ;)

[donald7150]

haha wow. i knew it was an easy swap. but it never crossed my mind
hmm...

[dodgeneonACR98]

haha wow. i knew it was an easy swap. but it never crossed my mind
hmm...
There ya go! May be the route I take also this spring. Ya know 25 more ft lbs of torque can be very usefull and all your mods youve done will work even better!

Do you know what you need to do it? Do some research on it. Here are a few things I can remember about the swap.

1. You will need 24 lb injectors
2. Coil wires on 1-4 need swaped.
3. Injectors need swaped around as well
4. A Pt Alt will work
5. The Pt ps pump bracket will need modified so that it will tighten up. The 2.4 has a sepentine belt that self adjusts.
6. Pasenger side motor mount kit. It drops that side of the motor down to clear the hood.
7.They suggest an Apexi sacf to keep the air/fuel right. But isn't needed as much if the injectors have been upgraded to 24 lbs.

Just a few things off the top of my head. Sure it may be easy but it's going to cost more than just bolting up another 2.0 and being done with it. JMO

[donald7150]

Yeah i did do a little research on it since it was mentioned above

But my current poor student budget doesnt allow for it lol. have to get the car fixed cheaply as possible

got the car all taken apart now. timing belt reduced to a bunch of shoestrings. i think it was a result of a leaky water pump leaking coolant onto the belt causing it to deteriorate rapidly. i knew the water pump had a small leak, but the belt breaking down as a result never occurred to my dumb ass.

Haven't got any classes tomorrow so i may dive into removing the head to see what damage is done. i wont have a new belt until probably monday anyway so i have all weekend to kinda scope everything out. and replace all the gaskets too

[rice_eater]

Ya know 25 more ft lbs of torque can be very usefull...
25!!! Try 32. 2.0L DOHC = 133lb/ft. 2.4L DOHC = 165 lb/ ft. 165-133= 32lb/ft by my math. ;)

Find a 2.4 engine with accessories on it and its almost a drop in swap. Theres one (maybe two... can't remember) sensors that need to be spliced into the factory neon 2.0L DOHC wiring harness, and you'll need an SAFC to adjust fuel. The motor mount adapter isnt that expensive, I think modern sells them. You'll end up swapping intake/exhaust manifolds with your 2.0 manifolds to make it fit, gaskets are cheap. Coil and plugwires from your 2.0L will work as well (in fact I think they are identical to the 2.4L...). I don't think bigger injectors are a must... think about it, the 2.4's run just fine in any other vehicle with 19lb/hr injectors... You also don't need AC or PS... be a man! LOL

[dodgeneonACR98]

25!!! Try 32. 2.0L DOHC = 133lb/ft. 2.4L DOHC = 165 lb/ ft. 165-133= 32lb/ft by my math Thats even better!!!

Im not sure but I think that the 24lb injectors was a way to get around the safc.
I guess that the 2.4's do run just fine in other vehicles with 19lb injectors and with out a safc too! LOL The PCM is tuned for it and we are not. Wouldn't the 24's dump in more fuel than the 19's. With out the safc the 24's will add enough to keep it from blowing up. If you have the flow for the safc tuner you don't need the 24's. Thats my understanding of it bro. correct me if im wrong.

[rice_eater]

Computer should read off the factory sensors, and adjust fuel as needed. Possibly it cannot adjust enough though. Still, I'd go with an SAFC either way, 19 pounders or 24's, just to be safe.

[dodgeneonACR98]

Computer should read off the factory sensors, and adjust fuel as needed. Possibly it cannot adjust enough though. Still, I'd go with an SAFC either way, 19 pounders or 24's, just to be safe.

Better safe than sorry sitting along the road with a spent grenade! lol

[donald7150]

Well boys. decided to pull the head today. and you guys were right. 2 intake valves very obviously damaged (cyl 1). and I am suspecting 2 more in cyl 3.

Here's what i discovered (cyl 1 is closest)

[donald7150]

Also both intake rockers for cyl 1 could be removed with my fingers as soon as i removed the valve cover

[rice_eater]

I'm not 100% certain... but I don't think 2.4L's are interference engines... :D

[dodgeneonACR98]

I'm not 100% certain... but I don't think 2.4L's are interference engines... Hmmmmmmm thats interesting!!!!

[donald7150]

Ok, so i have decided to fix my engine:

here's what I need so far

New belt (Mopar): $94
4 new valves: $130 incl air freight shipping
head gasket (Felpro: multi layered steel): $86
Full set of valve seals (Mopar): $48
2 new cam seals (Mopar): $7 ea.
Intake manifold gasket: $5

Total: $377

[rice_eater]

Check howellautomotive and modern for a price on the timing belt. They sell Mopar belts but you don't pay dealer prices. ;) Might have to wait a few years to get one from howell though, as fast as I hear he ships....

[dodgeneonACR98]

Check howellautomotive and modern for a price on the timing belt. They sell Mopar belts but you don't pay dealer prices. Might have to wait a few years to get one from howell though, as fast as I hear he ships....

There are a few things Howell sells that are not even built,programed or even in stock yet for that matter. Thats why it takes so long. He has to wait for AF/X to make a header,flash a pcm or have Crane grind a couple cams. Then it's mailed to him and then mailed to you. Cut the guy some slack will ya! LOL

Ok, so i have decided to fix my engine:

here's what I need so far

New belt (Mopar): $94
4 new valves: $130 incl air freight shipping
head gasket (Felpro: multi layered steel): $86
Full set of valve seals (Mopar): $48
2 new cam seals (Mopar): $7 ea.
Intake manifold gasket: $5

Total: $377

What about head bolts? And Mopar gasket sealant for the head gasket? Then theres the exhaust gasket, sparkplug tube seals and the valve cover gasket! You realy dont want to use those old stretched out bolts!

[alaskaneon]

ACR. As for how long it takes to get something from Howell, you tell me if this seems long to you. I ordered an AFX computer in July. It is now October. Every time I call I get a different excuse. That, my friend is not good business practice. Not sure if he should get a break.

[dodgeneonACR98]

Im sorry you have been getting the run around Alasksneon, I never had that problem with Howells. I remember you telling me this b4 but damn I thought you had it by now!
What are their excuses? Id tell them to send my dang money back! lol I know I would.

[alaskaneon]

After I ordered and it had been a while, I got on 2gn.org and read anything about the AFX I could and it has been a long standing problem to get something in a timely fashion. Excuses, well, everything from, ya yours is the next to be flashed, to we are getting to it, to I'm sorry we don't have a 2nd gen pcm to send in to flash but we are waiting for "a guy" to get us some. So currently AFX doesn't even have a PCM to flash because howell doesn't have anything to send. I did a search for a pcm on car-part.com the other day and I'm looking for one with the identical p/n to my original. When I find it I'm going to send it in. I'm certainly NOT going to send my original...who knows when I'd be back up and driving...and besides, if the AFX computer doesn't work properly it will be a lot easier to make the case that my car runs fine with the stock computer. lol! It's all more hilarious than anything else!

[rice_eater]

modernperformance > howellautomotive

[alaskaneon]

come again rice??

[rice_eater]

"greater than" sign? You know, like you learned in 1st Grade... LOL Meaning, ModernPerformance is better than HowellAutomotive.

Man, it takes all the fun out of it when you have to explain things.... haha.

[dodgeneonACR98]

I hear you alaska! I wont take up for him no more! LOL

[alaskaneon]

It would be one thing if they said, look, we cant find a computer to flash in a timely fashon, but as soon as we have one we will call you and you will not be charged until it is sent to Afx to be reflashed. That's all they would have to do to make me happy. Instead. No communication and they are sitting on my money, which I can get back if I want but would rather just get my computer. When I called originally to put my order in he googled my name or phone number and started telling me who I am....who does that??

[donald7150]

Well boys shes fixed

3 weeks and 1 day since the belt broke. ended up replacing 6 valves (2 exhaust, 4 intake), all valve seals, intake/exhaust manifold gasket, head gasket, valve cover gasket incl. spark plug seals, fluids and whatever else i missed totaled nearly $600

I did all the work myself (except the head work which was replace 6 valves, seals and regrind all the valves and clean everything up. had a good friend do that for me for $40) so i can't imagine how much money i would have spent in labour to have a garage do all this for me

Take my advise from personal experience;

dont neglect that timing belt

I got lucky

[alaskaneon]

congrats! an old timing belt to the neon is the equivalent to heart disease to the human!

[rice_eater]

All the more reason to swap in a 2.4L.... :D

[alaskaneon]

does the 2.4 have a chain? didn't know that.

[scottrachel01]

I thought the 2.4 had the belt, only it wasn't an "interfence"(spelling?) engine.?

[alaskaneon]

gotcha... I will be the first to admit that my knowledge about the internals of engines is growing. Anyone know what advantage there is to designing an interference engine over a non? Just seems logical to build something that isn't going to rely on a belt - a chain I can see, but a belt? I owned a Fiat bertone X 1/9 when i was Rice's age and it was an interference engine and I blew the belt, did head work and it ran again but what a pain. Anyone know what the advantage is? I'm ready to be schooled.

[dodgeneonACR98]

All the more reason to swap in a 2.4L.... This is what talked me into a 2.4 this spring!!! I can't wait! LOL

[rice_eater]

This is what talked me into a 2.4 this spring!!! I can't wait! LOL
Ditch your #10 cams then. A 2.4L will idle 18's without headwork. :rck:

[dodgeneonACR98]

Ditch your #10 cams then. A 2.4L will idle 18's without headwork. That would be the plan man!!! At least 16's.

[rice_eater]

22's ;)

[noenwarrior]

i did the 2.4 swap and it ran ferfect without cutting wires on the harness the only wires i cut and moved was the alternator cause i left it up front easy acess to change a belt lol. dont need a fuel adjustor just drop it in with the $70 peice from modern performance and cut the bottom motor mount to clear the oil pan i didnt even need to change the injector plugs it ran fin and very very fast but i did eventualy do it to see if there was a difference and it just idles a little bit smother but ran the same so thats would be the only cutting to do and its simple.just be sure to use the injectors that come with the motor. its worth the swap just do it! do it! do it!do it!do it!do it!do it!do it!do it!do it!do it!do it!

[noenwarrior]

oh damn i forgot one thing u do have to cut the 2 outer wires on the coil pack and switch them around. i was lucky to find a 95 dohc computer.

[95moparracer]

a balance shaft chain :P but no it has a timing belt just a like a 2.0 dohc...