92 dcaravan won't start/can't fix-help?

[edensvision]

It started on a trip drive of 2 hours Half an hour before arrival, check engine came on. It drove fine and we were needing to reach destination. 10 minutes before arrival, we heard "Ding" and looked at gauges. The battery gauge was at 8 (it dropped of coarse to the lowest reading), the steering became very tight. We made it to out destination and at the stop light it seemd as if it was going to stall but the light turned and we were able to drive into the autozone about 3 blocks from the light and all power steering was evident proof to be gone. My hubby lookes under the engine and the belts were still on, but the crank shaft key was broken. We finally get it back home on a trailer 6 hours later. Getting into things n 4th of july, no stores were opened. Hubby has been working on this now for 5-6 days. Here's what we have been going through.

He takes everything apart that needs to be taken apart to replace balancer, crank shaft key. Get's it all back on and it starts but its has no power to it and will not go past 35 mph. Well after two days work of all that. We take it to another mechanic and sure enough he's stumped after checking everything and suggests possibly changing the distributor. So we take it back home to do that. He does that and the cap, and now it won't start at all. We noticed the spark plugs have now all gone bad se we change all those out and the plugs. He 3 times checks to make sure all timing it pointing to all the markings, but it still won't start.

It turns over, but it will not enagage. The power all comes on inside the cab, and we have kept the battery charging. After a few tries it does downgrade a bit. We did get it to fire once and it backfired pretty bad with a smoke puff. But after they adjusted some things, it still would not start.

My husband is a fairly good mechanic himself working with his dad as he grew up on all sorts of vehicles and then the motor pool in the Military and working for precision trnasmission years ago. So he's not a feel good mocho guy trying to be Mr. Fix it per say. But he's stumped here, the book isn't helping at all and he's done it to a t anyway. His dad is stumped as well, and even the mechanic we went to was too. I myself am a wife who knows very little and i am trying to reach out for some help and found this site through a google search.

So we need help desperatly if anyone can tell us what the problem is. We have no codes to help, but i have been as informative as i can be with everything i have seen and witnessed this past week. I am hoping someone who know's the 3.0 V6 92 caravan very well could give a diagnosis and hopefully be able to advise me/us because the $200.00 process of elimination has killed us finacially and we have to get our only tranportation up and running as soon as we can just find out why in the #$%! we can't even get it to start now. Then we have to make sure the crank shaft key that broke was a fluke thing in the hopes that a 15 year old wear and tear just caused it to wear out. Niether of us our holding our breath on that but the crank shaft seems to be just fine otherwise.

Thanks and hope to hear from someone soon.

[XDGT03]

I have to say that I bet the distributer is in wrong. If it backfired and it ran before and now it doesn't I'm pretty sure it is in in the wrong orientation. First step should be to check that.

If the plugs are fouled, I'd be concerned that either you are pushing too much fuel which can cause it to loose power, or you have very bad rings. Check the oil and see if it smells like gas. If it does then DO NOT try and start it anymore. I think there is a fuel pressure regulator on this model. I will check later. I know on other cars if that regulator goes bad it can dump fuel into the engine cylinders which washes the walls and screws everything up.

Having a crankshaft key break is very unusual. It could have been weak from the casting but it is unusual. I'd be concerned that the there was a high load put on one of the things that the belt drives. A/C, alternator, air pump?(not sure there is one on this model) could have seized and jolted the crank pulley enough to snap the key.

[XDGT03]

Ok, it does have a fuel pressure regulator but I don't know it it can cause fuel to be dumped into the the cylinders.

Another thought is that the PCV system could be severely clogged. That can cause crankcase pressures to spike and cause loss of power. However the pressure should release of left over night which it appears as though it didn't.

Once the distributor thing is fixed, check to see if something driven by the crank belt is seized.

[mopar4u]

I agree, currently it seems you have a timing issue (distributer). After that you have something pulling the engine down, that would be my guess as to why you could only go 35mph after the key was replaced.

You said the check engine light came on to begin with, that means it threw a code, might help to know what code that was........

[drewb]

Thanks for the advice so far. I'm the guy acutally working on the car.

The check engine light only came on when the key snapped. Of course when that happened, the alternator, AC and power steering were no longer operating, so it was throwing codes all over the place. When I took it apart, I unhooked the battery (gotta be safe!), and lost all those codes. Since then, the check engine light hasn't come back on, even when it was running rough.

Here's the full detail of what happened:

During the process of replacing the broken key, I noticed that one of the screws in the distributor cap had broken in half (not sure how), so I decided to replace it. While taking the cap off, the other screw broke as well. Since I don't have any precision tools, when I tried to drill the screws out, I ended up with the screw holes about 1/16th of an inch off of where they were supposed to be. I put everything back together, and that's when it began running rough with no power. After two hours of fiddling with the distributor, I was not able to get it in time. I tried moving the distributor one tooth in each direction, but it wouldn't start at all in either of these positions. That's when i decided to take it for a second opinion. The mechanic that looked at it said it was probably the timing, but he couldn't do anything with it until I replaced the distributor (because of the out of line screw holes). That's when I replaced the distributor with a used one. When I put the distributor in, I put the cap on and used a chalk to mark the position of the #1 plug wire on the cap down to the distributor. I turned all my timing marks to TDC and lined my rotary button up with the chalk mark. That's when I got the backfire, but no start. I turned the rotary button back one tooth, and now it won't start.

Here are the things I've checked:

1. All three timing marks (crank and both cams) are dead on where they are supposed to be.
2. The rings and valves appear to be good as a pressure test on several of the cylinders shows 140 lbs. I wouldn't think it would hold near that much if the rings or valves were broken.
3. The #1 piston is up when the rotary button is pointing at the #1 plug wire.

Also, I'm pretty sure fouling the plugs wasn't very hard. They were all burnt and covered with carbon when I pulled them out. To be honest, I'm not sure how they had been firing as long as they had even without any other problems. The new plugs have not fouled and are still firing correctly.

Basically, I feel like the van SHOULD be in time, but it obviously isn't. Can you suggest a better way to check the position of the rotary button?

[TomQuick]

The number one piston is up TWO times during each combustion cycle. Once to compress the air / fuel mixture, and once to push the exhaust out. It sounds to me like you have the cylinder firing on the exhaust cycle, instead of the compression cycle. This is often referred to as having the distributor 180 degrees off. I always used to remove the #1 plug, and either put my finger over the plug hole, or thread in the hose from a compression tester, and watch that. Have someone tap the starter, and when the pressure pushes your finger off the hole, or you see the compression gauge jump up, you are on the compression stroke. Now rotate the engine by hand to bring the piston to TDC, and then drop in your distributor, and put the #1 plug back in. Line up the contact on the rotor with the #1 cylinder terminal, and then try to start it up again.

[drewb]

If I just turn all the timing marks to their proper positions, shouldn't that put the #1 piston at TDC on the firing stroke?

[TomQuick]

Yeah, you are right. I was thinking about the good old Chevy V8, which is a different beast than an overhead cam engine. Still, with it backfiring, and then not starting, and considering that it was running before, it would seem that the timing is the likely culprit. I am assuming that you have verified that you have a good spark now. I know this is a stupid question, possibly bordering on insulting, but are you absolutely certain that you have the plug wires in the correct spots on the distributor? That is a pretty easy thing to mess up, even for an experienced mechanic, and it would explain all your problems.

[drewb]

You're definately not insulting me. It wouldn't be the first time I've done that. Thankfully, this cap is numbered, and I matched it up with the old cap that I replaced to ensure that they are numbered the same. I've also had someone else check the wires just to make sure. I agree, it almost has to be a timing issue, but I'll be darned if I can figure out where.

[TomQuick]

Is it possible that you have the banks reversed, confusing the odd numbered bank with the even? As you said, as long as the timing marks are all lined up properly, then the #1 should be at TDC, and I'm just having a hard time thinking of other reason for the timing to be that out of whack.

[edensvision]

Well we have done everything suiggested and i do mean everythiung and still it won't start.
We even took off the exhaust (catalac converter) just to try it though it made no sense.

Please if anyone else has any other idea's? It's in time, it's firing, it's getting fuel and it's exhaust has been taken off. It should by all means start, but it';s not and we just don't know what else to do?

[TomQuick]

How about the simple stuff, have you verified that you are getting a spark?

[edensvision]

yes everything is firing, we are getting spark. It's so aggravating becasue everything is set to where it should start. It's in time, it's firing, it's getting fuel but it won't start.

[mfahey]

To put the timing issue to rest, if you have access to a timing light, see if you truly are getting a spark to #1. I'm of course assuming that there is a mark on the balancer.
Another thought might be plug wires that were old and fragile and damaged during your work.

[edensvision]

Well, I think I've put the timing to rest finally. I took the #1 spark plug out and put a screwdriver in the hole to be 100% certain that it was a TDC when the timing mark on the crank was lined up. I then lined up the two camshaft marks and put the belt back on, making sure that they were still lined up after I released the tensioner. I marked the position of the #1 cylinder on the distributor so that I could make sure the rotary button is lined up correctly. It is as close to being in time as I think it could possibly be without having it running and putting a timing light on it.

In addition, I ran a compression test on all the cylinders. Each one if them is between 130 and 150 PSI. I checked to ensure that gas is getting to the cylinders and after replacing the spark plugs and wires I ensured that the plugs are firing. I removed the air breather to ensure that it is getting air and even went so far as to remove the exhaust pipe from the manifold to make sure it wasn't getting too much back pressure. With all of that done, it is firing a few times, but it will not catch or run.

[edensvision]

we're just stumpt! Goodness i want my van back and after watching my husband turn every trick and fix all this post, his dad, and his own thoughts, we are just stumpt. :<

[TomQuick]

I don't know exactly where to tell you to look, but it still sounds like it is likely going to be ignition related, either timing, or just not getting a consistent spark.