excessive charging?

[Megunticook]

I just replaced the battery in my 1973 W100.

After 2 short test drives, I notice that the ammeter needle is way over on the right-hand "charging" side of the gauge. It did not seem to move slowly back to the center as it normally would after starting.

I put a "Battery Tender" low-amp charger on the battery just to be sure it was charged up--the charger indicated that it was fully charged.

As soon as I get a chance I'll test the voltage regulator (factory service manual outlines an easy procedure to test voltage at the ballast resistor while running the motor at 1250 RPM, with a chart of voltage range specs at various temperatures).

But it seems odd that the voltage regulator would suddenly go out after 10 years just when I put in a new battery. Could I be missing something?

Incidentally, I had an issue where I coated the battery posts and cable ends with dielectric grease when I put the new battery in. Yesterday I went to start it up to plow the drive and got a click and then nothing, not even headlights. I thought "WTF" and then after wasting an hour of time I finally realized the negative battery cable didn't have a good connection with the post because I may have overdone the grease and it wasn't tight enough. After I removed and reattached the cable it started right up.

The reason I mention that is I'm wondering if maybe a less than ideal ground connection there might be causing the excessive charging? Doesn't seem like it would, but I'm not an expert in electrical systems. Maybe I need to really clean all the grease off that post and inside of the clamp and get 'er on there tight.

But the manual only mentions 2 possible causes of overcharging--a faulty voltage regulator or a faulty ignition switch.

I hate electrical problems!

p.s. I'm thinking if I replace the voltage regulator I would get a Standard Motor Parts one that costs about $40. Would an Echlin of the same price be pretty much the same quality? What's your preferred brand for high-quality electrical parts?

p.p.s. I need some advice on body work in a big way--will try and post some pictures and ask for opinions.

[charlie1935]

Echlin was a good quality product when I used to do quite a bit of wrenching. Guess they still are. :gr_patrio

[Chump]

I just replaced the battery in my 1973 W100.

After 2 short test drives, I notice that the ammeter needle is way over on the right-hand "charging" side of the gauge. It did not seem to move slowly back to the center as it normally would after starting.

I put a "Battery Tender" low-amp charger on the battery just to be sure it was charged up--the charger indicated that it was fully charged.

As soon as I get a chance I'll test the voltage regulator (factory service manual outlines an easy procedure to test voltage at the ballast resistor while running the motor at 1250 RPM, with a chart of voltage range specs at various temperatures).

But it seems odd that the voltage regulator would suddenly go out after 10 years just when I put in a new battery. Could I be missing something?
Yur not missing anything, they do go bad and some of the cheaper aftermarket ones are real junk. Stick with Mopar,Standard,Borg Warner or Echlin brands and for sure STAY AWAY from Wells brand from Autozone.
If yur not in a rush www.rockauto.com has a good price on the Standard brand $28 plus a little shipping. You can also get a Borg Warner from Checker, Kragens,etc that has a Lifetime warranty. www.partsamerica.com
Incidentally, I had an issue where I coated the battery posts and cable ends with dielectric grease when I put the new battery in. Yesterday I went to start it up to plow the drive and got a click and then nothing, not even headlights. I thought "WTF" and then after wasting an hour of time I finally realized the negative battery cable didn't have a good connection with the post because I may have overdone the grease and it wasn't tight enough. After I removed and reattached the cable it started right up.

The reason I mention that is I'm wondering if maybe a less than ideal ground connection there might be causing the excessive charging? Doesn't seem like it would, but I'm not an expert in electrical systems. Maybe I need to really clean all the grease off that post and inside of the clamp and get 'er on there tight.
I would clean the grease off the post and the inside of the battery cable clamp. I use the little donuts on top of the posts to reduce corrosion, they work well and then seal the cable ends and post with a spray sealer. There is usually a second ground wire that goes from the battery to the radiator support, check/clean that also.

[B-300]

Also make sure the regulator mounting surface is clean or it will not measure the voltage correctly and overcharge. The mount also acts as a heatsink on electronic regulators.
--B-300--

[Megunticook]

Thanks for the helpful responses.

Unfortunately I don't have a set of alligator clips for my voltmeter, so I can't properly test the regulator. But I ordered a set which should be here shortly and will test things out then.

Appreciate the tip on the battery ground cable to the body, by the way--mine needs to be cleaned up and tightened down. I already did that to the one on the engine block--took a piece of sandpaper and got that copper terminal on the end of the cable nice and shiny!

I've only ever owned 2 vehicles ('70 D100 and the '73 W100), and have learned a lot over the past 15 years, but still learning as I go. Just got a factory manual last month, which is incredibly helpful--why I waited so long I'll never know.

I've got a line on a Standard Motor Parts VR-125 for $28 with free shipping (Amazon of all places!) but I bookmarked those parts sites you mentioned just the same. The Rock place looks great!

By the way, can you order Mopar parts online or do you have to get it through a dealer? I tried Google, couldn't find anything.

I know what you mean about the cheap stuff at Checker--before I knew any better I used to get Wells ignition stuff for my D100. Not smart, but then again I tuned up so frequently that the stuff never had a chance to wear out and cause problems. But I definitely have smartened up on that score.

Question: my heater fan seems to only run at slow speed. The previous owner mounted a 3-way toggle switch on the instrument panel but the fan won't operate on high speed no matter what position the switch is in. Should I install a new switch, or could the fan motor itself be the issue?

I'd like to restore the original heater/defroster controls on the dash but couldn't find a new switch anywhere online for it. Is that something I can get anywhere?

[bherder]

I've got a line on a Standard Motor Parts VR-125 for $28 with free shipping (Amazon of all places!) but I bookmarked those parts sites you mentioned just the same.

You're kidding, right? You got a Standard Ignition VR for $28.00 ???? Hell, I'd buy two and keep one on the parts shelf at THAT price!!

Question: my heater fan seems to only run at slow speed. The previous owner mounted a 3-way toggle switch on the instrument panel but the fan won't operate on high speed no matter what position the switch is in. Should I install a new switch, or could the fan motor itself be the issue?

Could be either. I've had the fan switch go out on mine (79') but you can get new ones at NAPA... And I've also had the motor go out also.... Again, you can also buy new ones at NAPA... (Either or, NAPA or elsewhere... I'm not endorsing NAPA) but it's just one of those things you'll have to sort out...

On the other hand.... It could be old wiring/bulkhead/dirty connections... Or anything else in between....

[Megunticook]

Yeah, not a bad price--local CarQuest wanted $45 for the same unit.

I'll have to take a closer look at my wiring diagram in the service manual as far as the blower motor. Wonder if the resistor could be bad. One of those things I've been meaning to fix for years--I just have had some amazingly frustrating experiences troubleshooting electrical problems over the years so I tend to procrastinate these things.

Maybe I'll start by picking up an Echlin switch from Napa and restoring the original heater controls on the dash.

[Chump]

We can help you with your electrical problems so keep smiling! Try www.makeitmopar.com for Mopar parts(25% off) although they won't have any online parts books for older than 1980 trucks. I have the parts books back to 69.
The blower motor switch you should be able to get at any auto parts store.
Keep in touch

[Megunticook]

UPS just brought my voltage regulator--I'll see if I can correct this overcharging condition tomorrow. Will probably replace all the wiring in that circuit while I'm in there and test the charging system thoroughly with my multimeter.

I must say, I'm impressed with Standard Motor Parts--they included a very clear set of thorough instructions with the VR (interestingly, they warn you to do some checks and tests before installing the new unit so you don't fry it). The component just looks and feels like a solid piece of work (I always like to see "Made in the USA" stamped in the metal).

I remember now I installed a set of their ignition wires about 7 years ago, quality stuff.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the excellent assistance and advice you're all providing in this forum--I hope I can reciprocate.

p.s. ACDelco blower switch is on its way from NAPA--that'll be next weekend's project!

[Megunticook]

Update--finally got the time to dive into this. First I installed the battery "donuts" (good call chump), cleaned the dielectic grease off the cable and the inside of the clamp, and made sure those connections were tight. Then I replaced the ground wire running from the negative battery cable clamp to the radiator bracket. Even checked for any resistance between the negative battery cable clamp and the body.

First question: can anybody post a picture of what a properly crimped and soldered wire splice should look like? I had a hell of a time soldering until I realized that my iron is probably way underpowered for this application (it's one I picked up to work on model trains and that kind of thing). What wattage is appropriate for automotive. Any particular models to recommend?

Then I measured the voltage at the ballast resistor with the engine running at 1250 RPM. It was well nigh 18. I grabbed the new voltage regulator with the intention of installing it, but first I decided to follow the instructions that came with the VR and perform some checking before installation. I got as far as making sure all connections in the alternator-regulator circuit are clean and tight--one of the wires leading from one of the alternator field clips was barely attached to the terminal by about 5 strands of weathered green copper. Not that this was causing the overcharging issue, but I figure as long as I'm in there I may as well replace all the wiring in that circuit that looks at all suspect.

Since I'm still waiting for my order of SXL and TXL wire, I had to call it a day--will resume when the wiring arrives.

[bherder]

Update--finally got the time to dive into this. First I installed the battery "donuts" (good call chump), cleaned the dielectic grease off the cable and the inside of the clamp, and made sure those connections were tight. Then I replaced the ground wire running from the negative battery cable clamp to the radiator bracket. Even checked for any resistance between the negative battery cable clamp and the body.

First question: can anybody post a picture of what a properly crimped and soldered wire splice should look like?

Eh! I should have seen this a couple hours ago... I just finished making up my wiring harness for my 'Headlight Relay Project' .... Maybe I'll go back out to the shop and take pics, being as all the junk is still sitting on the workbench :D

I had a hell of a time soldering until I realized that my iron is probably way underpowered for this application (it's one I picked up to work on model trains and that kind of thing). What wattage is appropriate for automotive. Any particular models to recommend?

A Weller, 100 watt. Pretty much the 'standard'....

one of the wires leading from one of the alternator field clips was barely attached to the terminal by about 5 strands of weathered green copper.

Ahhhh, THAT may very well be your prob right there!

[Megunticook]

I found some pictures in that online article about the ammeter bypass.

An online tutorial on crimping and soldering automotive wiring would be great, haven't found one yet.

As far as the Weller 100 watt iron, is this what you use?

http://www.glassmart.com/weller_100.asp

So you've got me curious--how would a poor connection on one of the alternator field wires (it was the one going to the voltage regulator) cause an overcharging condition? I'm not saying it wouldn't, just that my meager understanding of electricity doesn't allow me to see the reason high resistance in that conductor would spike the voltage by 3+ volts.

I was probably exaggerating how bad it was--it's just that I looked at it closely and saw the green oxidization on the exposed copper strands leading into the terminal, so I twisted it back and forth while pulling back to see if was weak and sure enough, it popped right off.

Where do you get your uninsulated butt connectors, by the way? I picked some Belden ones up at NAPA but they seem awfully short (probably 1/2 long at the most). The ones pictured on the MAD site (with the ammeter bypass article) are nice and long. I tried calling them to order some but all I could ever get was a busy signal.



[QUOTE]

[Megunticook]

Found more time today to get the charging system back in order. Replaced all 3 wires running from the alternator with just-arrived TXL (10 ga BATT wire is SXL).

Not sure I have my crimping technique down, but seem to be getting good solid mechanical connections on the butt splices. Anybody care to post pictures or describe how you do it? I'm using a Belden tool from NAPA, combination stripper/cutter/crimper, seems to work OK.

I will solder as soon as my iron arrives (hopefully this week)--already slipped on heatshrink insulation.

I pulled the firewall connector where the main output (BATT) from the alternator goes into the cab. No sign of melting, but the male connector on the cab side was pretty discolored and noticeably more flexible than the others. I decided to just run the new 10 ga. SXL from the alternator right through the firewall (new hole) and make a nice butt splice with the wire in the cab.

Having bypassed the potentially troublesome firewall connector, am I safe from fire hazards? I like the ammeter and would prefer to keep that "online," maybe add in a voltmeter at some stage. If I make sure connections are all clean and tight, do I still need to be concerned about potential overheating (I don't run AC by the way)?

Also, I notice from the wiring diagram in the FSM that there's a fusible link where the red 10 ga. wire from the ammeter heads back to the battery positive via the starter relay. The wire gauge steps down to 14 after the link. Does the fusible link protect me from overheating issues in that circuit? Or should I do something further to ensure that I don't get the "thermal runaway" type of situation?

By the way, I did notice while I was poking around under the dash a red wire with a butt splice, lots of uninsulated wire showing, and melted insulation. This means excessive resistance at the splice?

Thanks for the help.

[bherder]

I'll post some info when I get home from work... I'll try taking some pics of crimps and soldering, but I don't know if my cheap-o camera will let me get close enough to show you anything and stay in focus.. ;)

[Megunticook]

Thanks.

I seem to be jinxed. Finally finished replacing all three alternator wires, put in the new VR (with new wiring plug), replaced the battery cables, fired up the starter. . .and couldn't get the engine to fire at all. Tried nine ways to Sunday (trying not to trash my new starter or totally drain the new battery) and wouldn't fire at all.

Now how the hell would anything I did with the charging system affect how the engine fires up?

It is quite cold here--minus seven last night--but the truck normally starts right up even in the coldest weather.

I'm definitely getting gas. The manual choke is working. I may have flooded it the first time but went back a few hours later and still nothing.

What the hell? To think this whole sordid chain of events started with my little proactive preventive maintenance idea to replace a 7-year old battery. Now I'm reduced to not even being able to fire up the truck.

Any ideas would be most welcome. What would be the next step in diagnosing this? I guess I need to confirm that she's getting spark...

"Oh bother," as Winnie-the-Pooh would say.

p.s. I 'd like to hook up my battery tender now to recharge the battery (slow-rate charger, less than an amp). But the manual says not to charge a frozen battery. It's -5 right now. Does that mean it's not a good idea to charge the battery?

pps. several hours later, after looking at my wiring diagram and thinking, I'm wondering if I ought to be sniffing around the ballast resistor and the wire to the ignition coil (coil itself was new Echlin 2 summers ago--should be fine). I may have inadvertently done something around the resistor while I was replacing the wires from the resisitor to the alternator and VR.

What do you guys do with the terminals on wires that clip into things like the resistor? Reuse the old plasting housings with new crimp connectors? Replace the housings too (if so, where?)?

Am also a little troubled by an inconsistency in the way my ballast resistor seems to be wired, the way it's shown in the FSM wiring diagram, and the way it's shown in the electrical section of the FSM. Does anybody have a photo of what theirs looks like?

[bherder]

Thanks.

Well, sorry, I was slammed at work yesterday and didn't get a chance.. And it looks like it supposed to snow this afternoon, so I may be running plow truck... Yeeeeesh.

I seem to be jinxed. Finally finished replacing all three alternator wires, put in the new VR (with new wiring plug), replaced the battery cables, fired up the starter. . .and couldn't get the engine to fire at all. Tried nine ways to Sunday (trying not to trash my new starter or totally drain the new battery) and wouldn't fire at all.

Now how the hell would anything I did with the charging system affect how the engine fires up?

Well, they are intermingled... (See attachments)
The good thing is, Mopar charging and ignition systems are so basic, it shouldn't take long to hunt down/check the circuits ;)

p.s. I 'd like to hook up my battery tender now to recharge the battery (slow-rate charger, less than an amp). But the manual says not to charge a frozen battery. It's -5 right now. Does that mean it's not a good idea to charge the battery?

It's probably best to warm it up a little bit first... This time of year, I do it anyway, just so I know my rig will start...
Just get yourself a drop-light and a 100w bulb and stick it underneath/near the battery, and close the hood as much as it will close. That's enough to keep the battery warm overnight.

pps. several hours later, after looking at my wiring diagram and thinking, I'm wondering if I ought to be sniffing around the ballast resistor and the wire to the ignition coil (coil itself was new Echlin 2 summers ago--should be fine). I may have inadvertently done something around the resistor while I was replacing the wires from the resisitor to the alternator and VR.

Could very well be... I mean it ran before you started giggeling/changing things around and then didn't after....

What do you guys do with the terminals on wires that clip into things like the resistor? Reuse the old plasting housings with new crimp connectors? Replace the housings too (if so, where?)?

Some moulded plastic plugs you can buy new, others you can't and have to make due. You can replace the terminals in some plastic connectors, but they aren't your regular everyday every-hardware-store-has-em terminals. I think Chump has a connection (Pun intended) on these...

[Megunticook]

Thanks for the schematics.

Actually, I learned something today. My truck is 1973 but has electronic ignition (1973 was the first year Chrysler offered this I believe). I've been studying the 1973 FSM and the wiring diagram there is for conventional ignition. That's why I was scratching my head at the way the ballast resistor was wired--my truck has the dual resistor required for electronic ignition while the 1973 FSM wiring diagram shows only the regular resistor.

All of this dawned on my when I took a quick look at a 1974 wiring diagram this morning.

I picked up a new ballast resistor anyway and will hopefully get everything back in running order shortly. I may even go out tonight and do it with a work light because we're supposed to get a storm tonight and I may want to be ready to plow in the morning.

The temp. is way up now, by the way, at 30F last I checked. Safe to charge the battery now, or should I bring it inside to warm up first?

Thanks for your help. Boy, am I learning!

[Megunticook]

Another question I have: how do you handle splicing together 3 or more wires? The factory ones are done with heat and pressure, right? What's the home mechanic's equivalent?

For example, see the place I've circled in red in the wiring diagram for my ignition and charging system (from the 1974 FSM):

http://www.edgeis.com/graphics/ignition-charging-circuit-d.gif
Thanks.

[Chump]

Thats an important splice. The old ones were done with a machine like a spot welder, newer methods are ultrasonics.
I have done this splice with an unisulated butt connector, crimped, soldered and covered with adhesive lined shrink tubing.

I noticed you had a question about crimping, this will give you some good theory. It is for Molex terminals in particular but is basically true for all crimps.
http://www.molex.com/catalog/pdf/882006_63800-0029B%20Open%20Crimp%20Quality.pdf

[Megunticook]

Thats an important splice. The old ones were done with a machine like a spot welder, newer methods are ultrasonics.
I have done this splice with an unisulated butt connector, crimped, soldered and covered with adhesive lined shrink tubing.

I ended up splicing together those wires with a copper splice connector--will solder as soon as my iron arrives.

Tried maximizing conductivity in the joint by removing insulation from the middle of the wires from the alternator/voltage regulator to the resistor, bending up and twisting together tightly the bare copper strands, and crimping that rather than cutting the wire and stripping both ends.

I noticed you had a question about crimping, this will give you some good theory. It is for Molex terminals in particular but is basically true for all crimps.
http://www.molex.com/catalog/pdf/882006_63800-0029B%20Open%20Crimp%20Quality.pdf

Thanks, that's great. Just what I need to explain what the finer points of soldering properly are.

So, I can announce with pleasure that this thread may now close as the truck in question is running fine again. I didn't actually have time to check the voltage, just time to jump in, fire it up, take a close look at the ammeter, and get the driveway plowed before getting the kids to bed.

The new splice resolved everything, as I had ignorantly "replaced" the red and light green wires from the alternator field and voltage regulator and abandoned the old ones, not realizing of course (partly because I was looking at the wrong diagram) that the electronic ignition controller and the ignition key needed to be in on that circuit. No wonder she wouldn't start--getting zero spark.

I also threw in a new ballast resistor, for what it's worth.

I wouldn't say she "fired right up"--took a few tries, and I visually checked the choke operation to make sure--but once she did everything sounded great and the plowing went very well.

Hopefully she'll be back to her "starts on one try in subzero weather" mode. Don't you love that about old trucks? Nothing more securing that going out to your truck on a chilly morning, turning the key, and having her fire right up.

Anyway, at first glance it looks I've climbed out of my hole and can now proceed to tackle a very long punch list (next up: heater/defroster controls).

[bherder]

Hey there, Megunticook!

Glad to see you got her up and running!

I was going to put together a 'How to Crimp and Solder' primer for ya (Even took all the pics, such as they are..) but been so busy keeping the town I work for un-buried in snow, didn't get a chance to put it all together... But Chump got you pointed in the right direction, so all is good :D

Hopefully your heater/defroster control prob should be an easy fix.. If your 73' is like my 79' it's about as basic as it comes. (Unless you have AC)
Heat to the defroster or heat to the floor. Just a cable that works a door directing which way you want it to go.. And the temp control is just a cable that runs out to under the hood that works a valve spliced into a heater hose...

[Megunticook]

Yep, got a new valve (old one was totally rusted in the open position), a new control cable for the valve (just a 10' universal cable, like with a manual choke), plus the switch. Hopefully the control cable for the door in the heater unit is still there--I haven't seen it yet, but I've get to really dig in there deep.

I will likely disassemble the whole heating control unit plus all the ductwork and clean it with a white vinegar solution as you suggest (get that residual mouse odor out of there).

One thing--the clamps on the heater control gizmo that hold the cables in place are long gone. Can't quite tell exactly how it was configured, and FSM photo doesn't show the detail that well. I'm guessing just a generic cable clamp with a mounting screw at the base would work? What was on there originally?

Do you lube any part of the heating system? I'm thinking the control valve in the engine compartment could use a little grease on the pivot, plus probably the door or flapper thing in the heater control unit. Maybe a spot of lube on the pivot points of the heater control unit?

Hope that resistor in there is good--not sure I can get a replacement.