For the past few days, I heard (off and on) some crunching sounds (I know it sounds odd, but that's what it sounded like) coming from the left front. Just as soon as the van moves, it's starts shuttering. When it's in Park or Neutral, the engine runs smooth, but when in Drive or Reverse, it nearly stalls. The tranny seems to be ok, when going from drive to reverse (back and forth), it shifts tight and smooth, and the fluid looks/smell ok, so right now I'm leaning towards bad CV joints binding up and making the van shutter. Am I right??
I NEED this van on the road. ANY help would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!! TIA!!!
red ram van
Chet42
04-28-2006, 12:29 AM
Firstly check these items and remember looks are always decieving.
Torque convertor shudder: This is when the torque convertor has broken on the inside of the transmission, you will still be able to shift the gears but not able to move forward or in reverse accompanied by loud shuddereing and vibrations and eventually will stall out. The only sure way to check is to drop the transmission pan and see if there are large metal junks or large metal shavings at the bottom of the pan. If so you found your problem.
Tranny mount. May look OK until you take it out and its compressed to half its size, engine droops on that side, the added stress and engine imbalance eventually takes out the CV joints mostly inner but sometimes both.
CV joints has come apart: Sometimes will bind and make a God awfull sound like really loud clucking.
Engine out of center: This mainly happens when the front engine mount is extremley worn, engine will move back and forth and eventually move to one side more than the other and in some cases the axles will pop out of the splines and make a snap, snap sound. In most cases the CV's are the first to go in this situation.
Cheers
Chet.
gas28man
04-28-2006, 10:39 AM
The way you describe it definitely sounds like one of two things: CV shaft or bearing. Neither is a particularly easy job for a DIYer, as it requires dislodging the lower ball joint. I did a front bearing myself on a Lebaron, same basic design, and it was sort of a pain. And once you've got the bearing off, you're only one step away from removing the CV shaft anyhow, so the procedures are nearly the same.
Good luck, and let us know what you find.
Rick
flyingwolf
04-28-2006, 12:10 PM
Don't rule out binding brakes either.
Has your gas mileage dropped as of late?
96Grand
04-28-2006, 12:32 PM
I would check the axles first and then check the following if the axles are ok.
A/T - 41TE/42LE Shudder During EMCC Shift
NO: 21-05-97
GROUP: Transmission
DATE: Mar. 14, 1997
SUBJECT:
41TE/42LE Transaxle Shudder During an EMCC (Electronically Modulated Converter Clutch) Shift
NOTE: 1989 TO 1995 MODELS SHOULD HAVE TSB 18-24-95 PERFORMED PRIOR TO PROCEEDING WITH THIS REPAIR PROCEDURE.
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Transaxle shudder during a 3rd gear to 3rd gear partial EMCC (Electronically Modulated Converter Clutch) engagement, 3rd gear partial EMCC to 4th gear partial EMCC engagement, or 4th gear to 4th gear EMCC engagement. Vehicle speed will be above 40 mph to obtain these shift points. This condition can be the result of worn out automatic transaxle fluid, using additives in the transaxle fluid, or from using the wrong type fluid (Dexron II, III, or Mercon) in the transaxle.
NOTE: MOPAR ATF (http://www.alldatadiy.com/alldata/AFI~V6572917~C30621~R0~OD~N/0/41746574/56417202/56417205/56419253/34853741/34860071/34860072/34860119)+2 TYPE 7176 IS THE ONLY RECOMMENDED FLUID FOR THESE TRANSAXLES.
DIAGNOSIS:
Bring the vehicle to normal operating temperatures. Drive the vehicle on a smooth road while accelerating through the gears with light throttle application. Pay particular attention during the EMCC shifts that take place between 3rd and 4th gears above 40 mph. If vehicle shudder is noticed during the shifts, perform the Repair Procedure.
THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 18-17-96 REV. B, DATED OCT. 4, 1996, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES AND MARKED IN THE 1996 TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN BOOK (PUBLICATION NO. 81-699-97010). ALL REVISIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED WITH **ASTERISKS** AND INCLUDE LABOR OPERATION CHANGES.
NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 41TE OR 42LE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION.
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
NOTE: DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE (DTC) 38 (TORQUE CONVERTER CONTROL OUT OF RANGE) MUST BE PRESENT FOR THIS BULLETIN TO APPLY. IF DTC 38 IS NOT PRESENT AND THE VEHICLE IS A 1989-95 MODEL, REFER TO TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 18-24-95 DATED JUNE 24, 1995 AND PERFORM AS NECESSARY. IF DTC 38 IS NOT PRESENT AND THE VEHICLE IS A 1996 MODEL, REFER TO TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-05-96 DATED APR. 26, 1996 AND PERFORM AS NECESSARY.
Vehicle shudders during full lock-up Electronically Modulated Convertor Clutch (EMCC) operation and DTC 38 is present. Full lock-up EMCC is indicated by 3LU or 4LU on the DRB III RPM display screen.
DIAGNOSIS:
This shudder condition can be the result of leakage in the transmission front pump caused by a worn pump bushing. It is sometimes accompanied by pump whine.
Using the Mopar Diagnostic System (MDS) or the Scan Tool (DRB III) with the appropriate Diagnostic Procedure Manual, verify all engine/transmission systems are functioning as designed. If Diagnostic Trouble Codes are present, record them on the repair order and repair as necessary before proceeding further with this bulletin. If DTC 38 is present, perform the Repair Procedure.
A/T - Shudders During Upshift With No DTC's Present
NO: 21-11-96 Rev. A
GROUP: Transmission
DATE: Aug. 9, 1996
SUBJECT:
Shudder During 1-2 Upshifts -
41TE And 42LE Transaxles
With No Diagnostic Trouble
Codes (DTC's) Present
NOTE :THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-11-96, DATED JUL. 19, 1996, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. A LABOR OPERATION NUMBER IS REVISED AND IS HIGHLIGHTED WITH **ASTERISKS**.
NOTE :THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 41TE OR 42LE TRANSAXLE BUILT BEFORE MAR. 18, 1996 (TRANSAXLE IDENTIFICATION CODE NUMBER XXX-2652-XXXX).
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Vehicle shudders during light to moderate throttle 1-2 upshifts.
DIAGNOSIS:
Using the Mopar Diagnostic System (MDS) or the Scan Tool (DRB III) with the appropriate Diagnostic Procedure Manual and Supplement if applicable, verify all engine/transmission systems are functioning as designed. If Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's) are present, record them on the repair order and repair as necessary before proceeding further with this bulletin.
Test drive the vehicle on a smooth road surface. If the vehicle shudders during 1-2 upshifts with light to moderate throttle application, perform the Repair Procedure.
A/T - Intermittent Powertrain Shudder
NO: 21-13-95 Rev.
GROUP: Transmission
DATE: Sep. 8, 1995
SUBJECT:
Intermittent Powertrain Shudder
NOTE: This bulletin supersedes Technical Service Bulletin 21-13-95, dated Sep. 1, 1995, which should be removed from your files. The revision corrects a Labor Operation Number and is highlighted with **asterisks**.
MODELS:
1996 (NS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager
1996 (GS) Chrysler Voyager (European Market)
NOTE: This bulletin applies to vehicles equipped with a 41TE transaxle.
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Intermittent powertrain shudder during A/C operation while the transaxle is in 3rd or 4th gear and the Electronically Modulated Convertor Clutch (EMCC) is fully engaged (torque convertor is locked) or Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 73 (Worn Out/Burnt Transaxle Fluid) is present in the Transaxle Control Module (TCM).
These vehicles use an EMCC strategy to allow the torque convertor to "cushion" the A/C compressor clutch engagement while in 3rd and 4th gear when the torque convertor is locked. Transmissions with fluid deterioration from excessive heat exposure or extensive A/C operation in 3rd and 4th gear when the torque convertor clutch is applied may exhibit a pronounced shudder during A/C compressor clutch engagements.
The TCM will detect this shudder. After 20 consecutive shudder events are detected the TCM will set DTC 73 and disable the EMCC strategy. If EMCC has been disabled a slight bump may be felt when the A/C compressor clutch engages while running on smooth roads with the torque convertor locked. After 35 On Board Diagnostics II (OBD II) warm-up cycles (a warm-up cycle is when the engine coolant temperature has risen by at least 40°F since engine start up and reaches a minimum engine temperature exceeds 160°F), the TCM will re-attempt the EMCC strategy at least once, so a vehicle with DTC 73 present may experience intermittent powertrain shudder.
DIAGNOSIS:
Using the Mopar Diagnostic System (MDS) or the Scan Tool (DRB III) check for the presence of DTC 73 in the TCM. If DTC 73 is found, perform the Repair Procedure.
If DTC 73 is not present, road test the vehicle while monitoring the in-gear condition of the transaxle with the DRB III and the NC selected (ambient temperature must be above 45°F for the A/C clutch to cycle).
Verify whether shudder occurs when the transaxle momentarily enters 4th gear partial lock from 4th gear lock or 3rd gear partial lock from 3rd gear lock. Throttle angles of more than 20 degrees at 60-65 MPH will produce the most noticeable shudder. The vehicle should be evaluated with the transaxle both cold (transaxle temperature below 100°F) and warm (transaxle temperature above 200°F) while in 4th gear lock. If the shudder condition occurs and/or the transaxle fluid is discolored, even if a DTC is not present, perform steps 1 and 2 of the Repair Procedure.
Chet42
04-29-2006, 10:50 AM
Its not a 4 speed, its a 3 speed torquflight. Different animal.
Everything you wrote only pertains to the 4 speed.
A worn wheel bearing even a really bad one will not cause a stall, a bad CV will not cause a stall unless is totally blown part and if that happens the axle drops out onto the ground. The shudder is most likley coming from a bad torque convertor and this will certainly cause the engine to stall and shudder like crazy.
Chet.
red ram van
04-29-2006, 11:05 AM
Well, I took the van to the local shop (a trustworthy one, believe it or not!) just up the road. When I drove it there about 1/4 mile away, the problem was not near as bad as it was when I posted. Today (a day later) we drove it down the road with NO PROBLEMS!!! can you believe it??? The shuttering was GONE. The noise was still up front like the axle or wheel bearing. He going to put a new axle and bearing in on Monday or Tuesday. But the shuttering problem...what is it? Maybe a sensor on the tranny or the tranny solenoid? Will the torque converter give on and off problems? I know they tend to shutter when they go bad. I need some help on this because I think it's going to be a recurring problem in the future.
TIA!!
red ram van
96Grand
04-29-2006, 12:13 PM
Its not a 4 speed, its a 3 speed torquflight. Different animal.
Everything you wrote only pertains to the 4 speed.
Chet.
I completely missed the 3spd in the title, my fault guys.
96Grand
04-29-2006, 12:17 PM
The more I read about this, the shuddering can be anything from a wheel out of balance, improper alignment, or something w/ the tranny, maybe a mount or the converter is worn out.
:rck:
Keep us posted.
Chet42
04-29-2006, 04:20 PM
Disconnect the lock-up silonoid on the transmission, its the electrical connector behind the dipstick. Sometimes they "don't unlock" when they age and this could be causing your shudder. Also if it shudders at approx 40Mph when it goes into lock-up, then its definately the lock-up silonoid or your torque convertor or your using the wrong fluid. I had this same problem about 4 years ago with my 3 speed, i replaced the lock-up silonoid replaced my fluid and filter and it went away.
Also very important: What transmission fluid are you using? DO NOT USE DEXTRON in Mopar transmissions. It causes hard erractic shifts and torque convertor shuddering. Use only Mopar 7176+3 ATF in your transmission. There is no substitute. You can pick it up at any dealer. Also when was the last time the fluid and filter were changed?
And while i'm on the subject beware of transmission shops that use a universal fluid and then add and additive to make it compatable with 7176+3 fluid. It doesn't work!! and destroys your transmission in the process. Best thing to do is if you don't do it yourself is to buy a case of fluid and bring it with you and watch as they pour it in.
Chet.
dodges 3
04-29-2006, 07:30 PM
Does the above lock-up solenoid, wiring harness removal fix, work with the 3.3l. 4spd. as well. I also have a shudder at 60km/hr, and I just replaced drivers side CV joint/shaft today, and its still there. The outer boot on the CV joint was shot, and I have most of the grease on my driveway now, so it was still a good replacement. I'm goingh to change filter and fluid, maybe tomorrow, and motor mounts look OK, so I'm just looking for more ideas. Its a '95 Voyager, 262,000km......Brad
red ram van
04-29-2006, 10:14 PM
Thanks for all the replies guys. It seems more and more to me to be a TC problem more than anything. The tires, brakes, wheel balance are fine. This is something 'deeper' than those. The 'heads up' from Chet42 about the fluid is good to know. I am aware of the use of ATF+3 and 4 only in these vans. I drove it a short distance today (low speed) and all is well. I have to go to town t-row (about 5 miles) and we'll see how's it doing then. Keep the suggestions coming. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again guys for the 'thinktank'!
red ram van
Chet42
04-30-2006, 12:09 AM
No the 4 speed uses a TCM "Transmission control module" to control the shift points.
All the lock-up silonoid does on the 3 speed is at a certain speed Approx 40Mph an electrically controlled silonoid locks-up the pantetary gear to the drive gears and they revolve as one unit, this is supposed to eleviate heat build-up and internal wear on the transmission, so they claim...
